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It all goes back to that 'tattooers with no tattoos' thread.... if you make a living off of tattoos you should give back to what has sustained you... and it's less about putting the money back in as it is about putting yourself back into the thing that has given you your life.. supporting your peers who have supported you.. and if no one has ever helped you in your tattoo or art career you're probably either a fucking total asshole or you're really really bad at what you do.... this all goes back to the tattooers with no tattoos thread... for example the mitch o'connel thing mario mentioned... why should he get to make money off an industry that he's contributed nothing to? i've met the guy and asked him, and no he doesn't even have one tattoo.. in fact he was more interested in getting in the pants of my friend and i then talking about art or tattoos.. he's made a ton of cash off the tattoo flash he put out and for the most part as mario said the designs aren't even tattooable..

you can draw or paint whatever you want. what offended me in the other post was that some non-tattooer recent college grad had painted a horrible flash style painting and wanted to SELL it to make some extra money. you went to college, get a fucking regular job and leave our thing alone. i'm sick of seeing this over and over. the worst is fucking mitch o'connel and his parasite flash sets and books of untattooable kitsch. that motherfucker isn't even tattooed. just fucking leave us alone!

I agree with Mario (again) but I'm trying to ignore most of the back-and-forth boring shit about encouraging beginners like it was some kindergarten project and just say: Price is dictated by demand. That's it. If people want your stuff they will pay whatever you ask. Regardless of quality. But you did lay out your work before some of the best in the world (I don't mean me, btw) and expect it to be well received. Even after you declared it your first attempt. Sell something when you've learned to do it properly, not the first few clunky attempts. I went to art school and worked as a professional designer/illustrator/etc for almost a decade. I don't think it helped my tattooing too much. I learned how to take a brief from a client as a professional. I learned a bit of art history at university. Those were plus points. For me the worst influence art school has on potential tattooers is the sense of entitlement that it fosters. Art school 'kids' are taught that they have a special vision or gift. Taught that hey have a duty to broadcast their vision to the world and the world should think itself lucky to feel the rays of brilliance from a living genius. Tattooing and drawing tattoo designs teaches you (if you are lucky) that you are the current incarnation of an artistic lineage and that you are borrowing everything, attempting to take care of it for a while, to pass it on to a later generation. It also teaches you humility and the value of hard work, in spades. If smiling.politely had wanted advice, they would have asked how to improve the drawing before painting it. Instead they chose to seek acceptance and a confirmation of the 'special vision' probably with the hope of an offer of a tattoo apprenticeship. Genuinely, I wish you good luck with all those things but if you expect people to pay you money for something, it better be the best you can do. Especially in a saturated market. Be that tattoo style 'art' or whatever you choose to pursue.

one time when i worked counter at this one tattoo shop i photocopied pictured of myself, the apprentice and the owner and drew icp makeup on them and then replaces some flash on the wall with our juggalo pics.. so anyways mine was my passport photo and some dumb ass icp kids came in and freaked out when they saw mine saying i must be the most hardcore juggalette beccause i actually got my passport photo taken with clown makeup... they then did a couple rap songs for the apprentice and left without getting tattooed...

"We're so engaged in doing things to achieve purposes of outer value that we forget that the inner value, the rapture that is associated with being alive, is what it's all about." - Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth

My grandmother collects clown statues. I told her she was the biggest ICP fan I know. She disowned me.

hahah good point. i did look up some stuff after i made that post. you are right Ed probly is rolling in dough but i still don't think he's hurt the industry more then he's helped.. i came off a little harsher then i meant to. and stewart's point is spot on having worked as the counter or floor person i'd rather have someone come in a shop with an ed hardy shirt for a design reference than one of those awful affliction shirts with the crazy tribal-ish shit that's all over them. Or the rip off Hardy style shit you find in China town or the flea market If someone offered me millions to use my artwork I'd do it too. I do think it got way crazier then he probably ever though it would be.

The phrase "Christian bakery" scares me a little bit more than juggalos..

in no particular order, these are my favorite current tattooers i guess you could say. it's just people who's stuff i like and who i would get tattooed by or have been tattooed by that i liked. I might not be able to think of 25 off the top of my head but here's some... Jeff Rassier Scott Sylvia Tim Lehi Robert Ryan Dan Higgs Krooken Ken Tomas Garcia Scott McEwan Nick Collela Timmy Tatts Oliver Peck Mike Wilson Richard Stell Bob Roberts Ed Hardy

I can totally get on board with everything Ursula's saying, especially as someone who also makes their money from tattooing without being a tattooer myself. I think it's a respect thing, more than anything. I know a lot of tattoo artists who have helped me along the way, and I plan to get work from every one of them as soon as I either have money or decent transport. They've helped me put food in my mouth, why not help them in a small way, too? I'm not pretending it's selfless- I'm well aware I'll still be gaining great tattoos in the process, haha. But, the point is, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to add to the industry that's given you so much. How much can you really care about it if you're not interested in getting tattooed, and buying paintings, books and even donating to the charity box at conventions (you're just a bell end if you don't do that last one!), among other things? I'll admit I go overboard at times (the room I'm in is full of prints and flash, it's kind of a joke, haha), but I can't really imagine doing what I do without having such a keen interest. Otherwise I'd just be some mug who writes words, the same way Mitch O'Connell is just some mug who draws lines (artist my bum hole). I have a Mitch O'Connell book, by the way. It's fucking terrible!

Point is, everyone wants to take things from tattooing. People keep taking.

After saturday:

yeah, that's not exactly the only thing wrong with those pictures :eek:

i just wanted to clear up why i said (gouge quoted me) the word "outsider". by outsider, i don't mean someone who has no knowledge of the industry, history, or artists involved in tattooing and is therefore not tattooed themselves. what i meant by the word "outsider" is that i am just a customer, not a tattooer (or tattooist, if you prefer). i'll never know what it's like to be a tattoo artist, and i'll never fully understand all the obstacles and problems currently faced by those who work in this industry. i can sympathize, and empathize, but i'm not living it. i'm not experiencing it first hand when it comes to producing tattoos. also, the flash i draw is stuff i create, not stuff based on other people's designs (or at least not consciously or intentionally). i started a series based on Lucero lyrics, and i've also started working on a portrait series of people i admire (the first drawing being intentionally for Mike Park, though he doesn't know it yet and i won't get to finish it this week as i had hoped) which do have some elements related to tattooing (banners, script, etc.), but there's no way i'd post that stuff on here, and especially not after seeing the reaction Smiling.Politely received. what makes me mad is that people are reacting without knowing all the facts about someone and their intentions. i know and understand that people feel that their jobs are threatened right now due to a surge in shitty tattoo artists. but putting down people who clearly have some talent and drive is not going to change this, and if anything, i think is backfiring. i know people who just said "fuck it" and have started tattooing out of their homes because of this attitude. a few blocks away, there is a house where several people are doing this nightly. is this what we want to happen? personally, i want to still be able to get tattooed when i'm 65 or 70 years old, and i want to have the same quality of work done as i do now. and that's not going to happen if we just discourage everyone without knowing their intention for wanting to tattoo. also, as Ursula pointed out, there are many good artists who went to art school and now tattoo. Hell, Mario works with Josh Howard at CTC who went to SAIC and who i know produces stellar work. going to college isn't a bad thing, and just because you have a diploma doesn't make you automatically elitist. i find it hypocritical that it seen as ok to do the opposite based on an assumption of those of us who chose(and in some cases, were forced) to take a different route than those who did not go to college. my parents strongly encouraged me to do well in school, and any talk of anything else other than college (joining the military for example) was highly discouraged (and my father is a naval vet). i know a lot of people weren't raised that way, and that school doesn't come easy for everyone. but i don't think that anyone should have to apologize for the hand of cards that they are dealt in life, and it just so happens in this respect, i was lucky. i bare a reminder of this luck across my chest and heart that i see daily. this is how life is. sometimes we're lucky, and other times we're not. and also, as Ursula said, there are some tattoo artists that i want to tell to just stick to tattooing and to not paint, because their painting, in my humble opinion, does nothing to speak for the quality of art that they produce on someone's body. now i can't remember who i was looking at, but it was an artists who work i thought was phenomenal (though not my style), and then i saw his paintings and i felt disappointed. but again, if he enjoys painting, then more power to him. his tattoos look great, and opinions on art are all subjective. anyways, i've wrote enough i've gotta go study for math placement exams as i start down the new road i'm on in life. what i've said may be controversial or other's may disagree, but this is how i feel. i'm willing to discuss or debate all valid points of discussion, but will i not participate in any petty arguments. sorry for any typos, i don't have the attention span to proof read right now.

Every tattooer EVER has "ripped off" other tattooers. Actually every artist in the history of forever has ripped something off. Sailor Jerry wasn't the first person to put a banner on an anchor and call it a tattoo. All those images came from somewhere. Bob Roberts, Ed Hardy, Jerry, insert any tattooers name here all have done re-paints of other people's flash. I've done it your done it and now this dude with his painting has done it. He can ask for whatever he wants for his painting. It likely won't sell but that's just because no one know's who he is. It's not the best painting I've seen but man I've seen people who actually do tattoos who's painting are pure garbage and still they sell. The main point for me is this: make art if you are truly driven to make art. Be inspired by what strikes you. Take those things that inspire you and make them your own. And when you are finished your masterpiece ask whatever you want for it and hope it sells. If you stay with it eventually people will notice you for your talent and want to give you money. I'll finish by saying of all the 'art' I've made in the last ten years I have sold or traded far less then half of the things. As for the rest, I don't care if it's sold or not. I make things because I'm driven to, not for money. The money is just a really rad added bonus which hopefully one day it will be enough to support me.

I don't think you should be apologizing for going to art school. Fancy or not. Nor should you have to explain yourself or your family situation. Playing the 'who's more oldschool' or 'who's more deserving' game is pointless.

I think my Raptor jumping with "Shoot Her!!!" written above it is on the top. I also want a Wizard tattoo.

i wonder how many times he's been stabbed in the face before he decided to get that tattoo.

apparently somebody was testing, the "hard 2 kill " tattoo , and its protective charm capabilities.

When asked by my customers why i'm not in a tattoo tv show ( they think a lot of me ) . I explain that leather pants don't come in size 18.

i finally got to see those legs in person two years ago, in san jose at the convention of the tattoo arts. i could not stop starring! and i wasn't the only one, there was a group of people watching him and stuart. it was weird to have a carnival feeling of checking out the "amazing tattooed man" at a tattoo convention. a truly beautiful work of art. who isn't jealous?!!

just cram 'em all in there. i don't get it when people plan their whole bodies out or want all this "balance". do they plan on posing around naked all the time for us to scrutinize? most of the time people only see our arms anyway.

I think I see where some of your issues are coming from, Pauly.

The one I really hate is tats

totally depends on the image. most of what i'm asked for, i can draw pretty quickly, 20-40 minutes. a lot of my "custom" pieces are done as walk-ins, so i actually draw a lot of my stuff pretty quick and hardly ever draw at home. i actually spend more time on drawings for regular customers (meaning not seeking me out specifically) since those tattoos tend to be more outside my comfort zone, so it takes me a little longer to visualize it, then work it out on paper. i prefer drawing at the shop, since there's a copier and a ton of reference, and i do reference EVERYTHING. but i do like painting at home, after the woman and child have gone to bed.