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Nobody who tattoos simply to make a living, to put food on the table becomes 'great'. Maybe it's starts that way, but somewhere along the line something will change. Anybody who became 'great' at anything sacrificed a lot to get there. That's where the respect comes in. Tattooing isn't just another artform to 'express' yourself. It's something very different that has similarities to other crafts and arts but it's something that stands alone. You can draw similarities with other fields (and it can be fun to dream them up) but in the end nothing else has the same mix of craft, decoration, artistry, service and an emotional connection. The respect doesn't come from the amount of tattoos someone has. The lack of respect comes from the hypocrisy to dare to do to others what you cannot allow to be done to yourself. A subtle but very definite distinction. I would like to add that ANY craft is sacred. The time and energy spent perfecting any craft is akin to spiritual devotion. Anybody who fully understands their craft deserves respect. It's impossible to fully understand tattooing without having tattoos. One or two small ones doesn't count. I understand that visible tattoos are not for everybody, but that's not what's being discussed here. Anybody who buys supplies, attends conventions, buys magazines etc, serves the 'industry'. Those who get heavily tattooed and take their shirt off for a photo shoot, serve the 'industry'. - I never mentioned them, or the industry, as they are a different argument that I have no interest in. Tattooers who aim for quality and get tattooed serve the CRAFT. They also HAVE respect for the craft, so they deserve nothing but respect in that regard. Being 'cool' has nothing to do with it.

I don't think you should be apologizing for going to art school. Fancy or not. Nor should you have to explain yourself or your family situation. Playing the 'who's more oldschool' or 'who's more deserving' game is pointless.

Every tattooer EVER has "ripped off" other tattooers. Actually every artist in the history of forever has ripped something off. Sailor Jerry wasn't the first person to put a banner on an anchor and call it a tattoo. All those images came from somewhere. Bob Roberts, Ed Hardy, Jerry, insert any tattooers name here all have done re-paints of other people's flash. I've done it your done it and now this dude with his painting has done it. He can ask for whatever he wants for his painting. It likely won't sell but that's just because no one know's who he is. It's not the best painting I've seen but man I've seen people who actually do tattoos who's painting are pure garbage and still they sell. The main point for me is this: make art if you are truly driven to make art. Be inspired by what strikes you. Take those things that inspire you and make them your own. And when you are finished your masterpiece ask whatever you want for it and hope it sells. If you stay with it eventually people will notice you for your talent and want to give you money. I'll finish by saying of all the 'art' I've made in the last ten years I have sold or traded far less then half of the things. As for the rest, I don't care if it's sold or not. I make things because I'm driven to, not for money. The money is just a really rad added bonus which hopefully one day it will be enough to support me.

Unfortunately like Shawn said in the art world for most people it comes down to who you know and who knows you. It's bullshit but it's the way the world works so you juts have to make friends in the industry and learn to play the game.

I did find it interesting that that kid got shot down so inappropriately harshly while Ursula's embroidery was so well received. Both were non-tattooers offering tattoo imagery for sale. That other kid ended up typing out his life story to appease people, which is a shame. I would have went with a 'hey, fuck off, sport'. And Gouge- no one will think you're an outsider because folks seem to like you. It's all about who you know... didn't you know that? :D

I'm gonna stir the pot here, and I want to be clear that this is all in an effort to understand, not confront or argue. I promise. smiling.politely posted a painting the other day and asked about pricing in his thread. The minute I saw it, I thought, "Uh oh.." But you learn a lot from year to year as you get older and while tossing up a panther head painting and asking about pricing in a forum full of curmudgeonly tattooers is not the best idea, I thought, "Shit.. I guess I won't mention my own sketchbook. Or messing around with watercolors." So, aside from trying to cash in on generally accepted tattoo designs, it comes back to this question of ownership. As far back as I can remember, I drew and I drew on myself. When I got older I bought tattoo magazines and drew designs out of there, sometimes for friends, none of whom actually got tattooed. I was definitely not a great artist. I have the utmost respect for those on here who are career tattooers. But I sit in my kitchen when I have the time, and draw. And yep, sometimes they're (poorly drawn) panthers and pharoahs horses and lady heads. Ms. Rad said something on ShannonShirley's blog: "i even draw flash in my sketchbook, but i wouldn't dare show anyone what i've created... tattooing is a whole different world, and i've come to the conclusion to not even try to understand it since i will always be an outsider" So we're all obviously outsiders. I guess the question is why we're not allowed to draw traditional designs. I draw other things, too, but I feel that tattoos have been such a part of me for so long, it's hard not to want to try drawing a panther head a new way, or get my roses down. (Damn, roses are tough..) And right now, I'm cringing just like I did when I read the post asking about pricing for the painting because I almost don't want to read the responses. I'm sure smiling.politely didn't mean to insult anyone. I hope I'm not insulting anyone. One of the great things about LST is us regular civilians get to learn. I still remember Alanna's post about going from watching tattoo tv shows to learning about Amund Dietzel and getting a Dietzel tattoo from Nick Colella (I think it was). So.. if no one is trying to take money out your mouths, and someone shows an interest in the art side of it, why assume the worst? All tattooers were the same regular folks before, drawn to art, enamored with tattoos, drawn to it all for whatever reason. And I think there's something to be said for defending your craft so vehemently. Tell me to fuck off and die if you want, but this probably won't stop me from continuing to draw. Because unless someone straight up copies, nobody owns "panther head" or "pair of swallows." If they did, nobody would have been tattooing them for the last hundred years. Hope I didn't offend anyone, just trying to understand.

i just wanted to clear up why i said (gouge quoted me) the word "outsider". by outsider, i don't mean someone who has no knowledge of the industry, history, or artists involved in tattooing and is therefore not tattooed themselves. what i meant by the word "outsider" is that i am just a customer, not a tattooer (or tattooist, if you prefer). i'll never know what it's like to be a tattoo artist, and i'll never fully understand all the obstacles and problems currently faced by those who work in this industry. i can sympathize, and empathize, but i'm not living it. i'm not experiencing it first hand when it comes to producing tattoos. also, the flash i draw is stuff i create, not stuff based on other people's designs (or at least not consciously or intentionally). i started a series based on Lucero lyrics, and i've also started working on a portrait series of people i admire (the first drawing being intentionally for Mike Park, though he doesn't know it yet and i won't get to finish it this week as i had hoped) which do have some elements related to tattooing (banners, script, etc.), but there's no way i'd post that stuff on here, and especially not after seeing the reaction Smiling.Politely received. what makes me mad is that people are reacting without knowing all the facts about someone and their intentions. i know and understand that people feel that their jobs are threatened right now due to a surge in shitty tattoo artists. but putting down people who clearly have some talent and drive is not going to change this, and if anything, i think is backfiring. i know people who just said "fuck it" and have started tattooing out of their homes because of this attitude. a few blocks away, there is a house where several people are doing this nightly. is this what we want to happen? personally, i want to still be able to get tattooed when i'm 65 or 70 years old, and i want to have the same quality of work done as i do now. and that's not going to happen if we just discourage everyone without knowing their intention for wanting to tattoo. also, as Ursula pointed out, there are many good artists who went to art school and now tattoo. Hell, Mario works with Josh Howard at CTC who went to SAIC and who i know produces stellar work. going to college isn't a bad thing, and just because you have a diploma doesn't make you automatically elitist. i find it hypocritical that it seen as ok to do the opposite based on an assumption of those of us who chose(and in some cases, were forced) to take a different route than those who did not go to college. my parents strongly encouraged me to do well in school, and any talk of anything else other than college (joining the military for example) was highly discouraged (and my father is a naval vet). i know a lot of people weren't raised that way, and that school doesn't come easy for everyone. but i don't think that anyone should have to apologize for the hand of cards that they are dealt in life, and it just so happens in this respect, i was lucky. i bare a reminder of this luck across my chest and heart that i see daily. this is how life is. sometimes we're lucky, and other times we're not. and also, as Ursula said, there are some tattoo artists that i want to tell to just stick to tattooing and to not paint, because their painting, in my humble opinion, does nothing to speak for the quality of art that they produce on someone's body. now i can't remember who i was looking at, but it was an artists who work i thought was phenomenal (though not my style), and then i saw his paintings and i felt disappointed. but again, if he enjoys painting, then more power to him. his tattoos look great, and opinions on art are all subjective. anyways, i've wrote enough i've gotta go study for math placement exams as i start down the new road i'm on in life. what i've said may be controversial or other's may disagree, but this is how i feel. i'm willing to discuss or debate all valid points of discussion, but will i not participate in any petty arguments. sorry for any typos, i don't have the attention span to proof read right now.

I disagree with some of that. It's very very very difficult to get noticed in any art scene based on your work alone. It's the people who network and get their shit out there who get noticed in the end. Playing the game doesn't always mean selling yourself short. You can be a good artist and also be a good networker. I have seen a lot of people who get praise they don't deserve but I've seen so many more people who are amazing artists that no one's even heard of. For me it comes down to what you want to do with your career. If you want to be hung in galleries nation wide then game playing is almost the only way. Guys like McQueen are very rare and even he played the game by showing up at shows and pushing his work. I feel like even sitting at home and painting alone and then posting it on a message board for sale is playing the game to an extent. You've gotta get your work in front of people to get it noticed. Just to clear it up a bit : I don't respect someone just because of who they know and wouldn't get tattooed by someone or buy their painting just because they are known but a lot of people will.

Oh and for the record Mike Wilson went to art school and he's (in my opinion) in the top ten tattooers in the country.

i enjoy both though i'm covered mostly in colour tattoos. i think i get a little more excited about color tattoos but thats mostly due to the style it's executed in for example, i love b&g style tattoos but not so keen on traditional tattoos done in black and grey. also i much prefer b&g portraits, not into colour ones at all.

I want to apologize first. but , what the hell happened. paint art. why and how did facsimiles of Jerry's or Don Ed's or Mike Malone, hell rip Bob Roberts off. Lets see how he likes it. Sorry, Im old ,and i just don't get it.Why do we all chase traditional flash. go ahead say what you want, look at my profile, It may suck , but those are my paintings. Again ,Im sorry i wouldnt give ya 5 bucks fer that shit.Arts about you , what the fuck did they teach you? Be you. my priceless advice.

And if you do say what you want some dick will see that, think it's a good idea and go get it done... i've even had so called friends pull that shit...

saw somone online today use 'toos how lazy can you be, just type the extra letters and make it tattoos.. my biggest cringe though is people who spell it tattoo's there's no apostrophe in the word!!!!!!!!!! Learn how to spell your own trade!!! And of course the obvious ones that have been mentioned - tatt gun, leg sleeve, tatted up, tattys.... I think the next asshole who tells me I'm all tatted up might get a dick/vagina punch. Actually I'm gonna also add another.. Don't tell me I'm all tatted up or 'damn you gots all kind of tatts' because I FUCKING KNOW I HAVE TATTOOS THEY ARE ON ME.

a couple more from Jerry Hsu's photo blog