looking for advice on pricing paintings...

[smiling.politely]

while this is indeed for sale, i'm just out of college, and have little paid experience with my art. it's acrylic on canvas, 16"x20", and took around 12 hours (14 or so including the time it took to draw up the design, then transfer it to the canvas). my brain is saying something around $200, but i'd love for any pointers or considerations i may not have factored in.

if anyone would be interested in a purchase, that'd be rad. if not, any help would be greatly appreciated.

p.s.- also, this is only my second painting with tube acrylics and brushes on canvas (usually i use paint pens with a brush on lots of surfaces). i'm very happy with how it came out...

[MsRad]

it looks pretty rad for it being your second painting on canvas!

[Mel Noir]

I have no idea on pricing, but I'm joining MsRad in the "it looks pretty rad" corner!

[mario desa]

nevermind..........................................................................

[Shannon Shirley]

I want to apologize first. but , what the hell happened. paint art. why and how did facsimiles of Jerry's or Don Ed's or Mike Malone, hell rip Bob Roberts off. Lets see how he likes it. Sorry, Im old ,and i just don't get it.Why do we all chase traditional flash. go ahead say what you want, look at my profile, It may suck , but those are my paintings. Again ,Im sorry i wouldnt give ya 5 bucks fer that shit.Arts about you , what the fuck did they teach you? Be you. my priceless advice.

[Shannon Shirley]

lets be honest

[mario desa]

fake tattoo flash by parasites...you went to college, get a job, leave us alone.

[smiling.politely]

this is going to be slightly long... i'm going to try my best to explain myself, because i don't want to be seen this way. please, hear me out. however, if you don't want to read it, feel free to skip to the end or ignore it. i'll understand no matter what you choose.

to explain... i went to college after high school, but didn't know what i wanted to do in life. i started in art in high school, and after realizing i would hate my life in 15 years if i went into any of the professions my skills assessments and placement tests told me to pursue, i went into art, because it was a challenge to overcome. math and science were easy to me as a kid, but art was hard work. and i liked that aspect of it... i also found that hated the attitude, arrogance, and insincerity of 95% of people in the art scenes. i spent years trying to do "academic" or "fine" art, but i didn't connect to it. it didn't make me feel anything while i was making figurative bronzes, abstract paintings, or light gestural sketches... i was just doing it because i was told. i did that stuff for about 2.5 years because that's what i was told was art. however, i have been around tattoos my entire life. my father has a Charlie Cartwright chest piece (and other assorted work from him) from when he ran End of the Trail in Wichita (he's 75% covered now), which is older than i am. some of my earliest memories are from sitting in a tattoo shop lobby once Charlie was gone and my parents found a new tattooer, watching all the guys gather around while they fed mice to the snakes they had caged in said lobby. once i wanted to get tattooed, i started drawing myself rough ideas to take my artist. that led to me engrossing myself in studying the history of tattoing, as well as the art involved. i don't want to be like so many of my generation, covered in crap work because i didn't do any research.

i apologize if it seems i'm trying to take money out of the pot for myself, and i can understand how it would appear that way. art is about who you are, right? they did teach me that at school. i never felt connection to figurative charcoal drawings. my paintings didn't get the inspiration of the post-Impressionists or Abstract Expressionists, because i hate their work. i never felt like exploring the juxtaposition of this and that with my bronze sculptures. i've spent my life living in the country, picked art because it was hard work due to my complete lack of natural talent, and majored in metal cast sculpture because it was the most honest and least pretentious group of students/instructors. as for art being about myself, i'm inspired by and love tattoos. i'm not trying to be a leech, or a parasite, and i decided not long after posting this to give this painting to a tattoo artist who is putting on an art show that this was drawn for.

my eventual goal in life is to be a tattooer. that's not a fall back, "i can't make it in the real world" goal, it's what i want to do with my life. i'm in the beginning stages of being shop lackey where i get tattooed, with the goal to be part time counter guy as one of the folks who works counter now gets into her apprenticeship. i'm appreciative of the chance to mop the backroom and clean caked dust out of the vents in the bathroom, because not everyone gets that chance. i can't get a "real" job with my college degree, because it's art... not even graphic design. art. mass communication majors laugh at my degree.

again, one last time, i apologize if i came off as anything but sincere in my respect for tattooing. feel free to criticize my goals, work, aspirations, or past if you'd like, but know that i'm not trying to be a parasite to tattooing. i'm not a tourist, as Tim Hendricks called what i seem to be seen as in another thread on this site. this is not for the money, because i know that there won't be any for a very, very long time, if ever.

[smiling.politely]

also, to clear up any misconceptions about my going to art school... it wasn't some fancy school. i went to an in-state, Big 12 university. that way, the tuition would be lower. also, i didn't go there for art initially, as i believe i explained in the last post. also, the student loans i racked up are going to put myself and my parents in debt for years to come. loans were the only chance i had, since my dad is a carpenter by trade (with no deltoid in his right arm and a rod in his leg for pretty much his whole career, as well as almost constant herniated discs and an assortment of other rotating injuries), who effectively retired when his brother fired him for not putting storm doors in houses when it was sleeting. at the time, he had a stitched cleft lip from when a dog bit a section of his lip out while putting a door on a house, and was healing skin grafts on his middle and ring fingers on his left hand, where a wood jointer in his brother's cabinet shop took the very tips off of them. apparently, my uncle decided to remove the safety guards. my mother struggled and worked hard (and wore long sleeves) to get a job as an accountant so that she could help support the family when i was a child (especially after Dad retired).

there isn't a silver spoon in my mouth.

[ShawnPorter]

I don't think you should be apologizing for going to art school. Fancy or not. Nor should you have to explain yourself or your family situation. Playing the 'who's more oldschool' or 'who's more deserving' game is pointless.

[Ursula]

Every tattooer EVER has "ripped off" other tattooers.

Actually every artist in the history of forever has ripped something off.

Sailor Jerry wasn't the first person to put a banner on an anchor and call it a tattoo. All those images came from somewhere. Bob Roberts, Ed Hardy, Jerry, insert any tattooers name here all have done re-paints of other people's flash. I've done it your done it and now this dude with his painting has done it. He can ask for whatever he wants for his painting. It likely won't sell but that's just because no one know's who he is. It's not the best painting I've seen but man I've seen people who actually do tattoos who's painting are pure garbage and still they sell.

The main point for me is this: make art if you are truly driven to make art. Be inspired by what strikes you. Take those things that inspire you and make them your own. And when you are finished your masterpiece ask whatever you want for it and hope it sells. If you stay with it eventually people will notice you for your talent and want to give you money. I'll finish by saying of all the 'art' I've made in the last ten years I have sold or traded far less then half of the things. As for the rest, I don't care if it's sold or not. I make things because I'm driven to, not for money. The money is just a really rad added bonus which hopefully one day it will be enough to support me.

[Ursula]

Oh and for the record Mike Wilson went to art school and he's (in my opinion) in the top ten tattooers in the country.

[William Burgess]

Isn't it true that one of the most classic tattoo designs of all time, (the panther crawling up the arm) did not even originate as a tattoo design? Wasn't it from a childrens book or something?

[Ursula]

Pretty much every tattoo design started out as something else.

[William Burgess]

Pretty much every tattoo design started out as something else.

The reason I brought this up was that the design is pretty much used as is without much change. Whoever thought to draw a panther in that position, which would not occur in nature was a true originator in my mind.

One of the coolest flash sets I have seen were simply reworked Mary Cicely Barker faries arranged on flash sheets.

[smiling.politely]

i was in no way apologizing for art school, but any possible misconceptions over my intentions. i'm very proud of the fact that i went to college, graduated, and figured out what i want to do in life. and yes, i did go a bit overboard on the posting there.

that long winded explanation was more for people who may be on the fence about how to feel about my question, and the painting. i do know that in some cases, trying to explain oneself to a detractor is like trying to kick water uphill: i won't win. i do appreciate any feedback, especially any negative feedback. it drives me to want to be better.

as for the perception that i'm ripping off the older artists, i tend to disagree. however, i did do a painting in that style, so those influences will show. it's the first panther head i've ever attempted... i've had no time to make the ground breaking innovations to the design i'm apparently expected to make by some in order to earn the right to paint it.

[Bubbleberry]

Leave the kid alone. Its one of his first works, it great, I love it and would be happy to hang it on my wall. Ed Hardy is making MILLIONS from images just like this, that were copied or inspired by others so keep smiling politely , and ignore the angry people.

For those who are interested, the panther tattoo was stolen from a illustration by Marie Schubert in the early 1930's. " The crawling panther made its debut in this unique volume as a monstrous and magic cat sent to devour the mythic Irish hero Cuchulain ,who thumped it on the nose with the flat of his sword and then tossed bones to it while he finished his dinner."

[Ursula]

First off Ed Hardy isn't making millions. All those designs he liceneced, well they actual pretty much stole that shit off him and he doesn't see the millions being made from beer cozies and air fresheners...

Ed Hardy can sell his paintings and prints for whatever he wants because he's an amazing artists and most of us will never even come close to being as good as him... He's been around for decades and has proven himself in the tattoo world as one of the best in the world..

comparing that kid's first painting to ed hardy is insane...

Come on, this is tattooing. People around this industry arn't really known for being nice or accepting of non-tattooers or new tattooers or even old tattooers who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

When you're showing your art for some of the best in the industry to see you better come correct...

like i said before the painting isn't the worst i've seen but it's a far cry from the best... if you want his painting make him an offer...

[Bubbleberry]

First off Ed Hardy isn't making millions.

What, are you serious ?

First off he makes a fortune from the sale of Sailor Jerry merchandise and related book, and has done for 30 years.

Second, even though he thought that Christian Audigier was " at ground zero of everything that's wrong with contemporary civilization." he decided that ", if he wants to make a lot of money with my art, and it's not going to be overtly negative, then what the hell".

His, and Sailor Jerrys images are sold in Ed Hardy stores around the world - last year he got a slice of a cool $29 million.

Lets not forget his own art, the licencing of his name to drinks manufacturers, electronic companies, phone corps etc etc.

Yes he is a god in the tattoo world.

Yes his work is amazing.

And yes, unfortunately, people are going to get bored with tattoos a lot quicker because of him... tattoos have always had a mysterious air about them, they were always on the verge of being cool or risky.

Very soon they are going to be seriously uncool, and that's a pity.

As for buying the guys art - well as myself and my wife paint similar stuff I have no need, but that does not stop me trying to encourage him !

[Ursula]

I'm sorry but you are a fucking moron if you think Ed Hardy has hurt the tattoo industry.

If Ed was making all that cash he wouldn't be selling tattoos and painting anymore. He'd be living on his own private island or some shit like that.

Well he does own the right to a lot of Sailor Jerry stuff and has made lots of money of it, he kind of deserves it since he's the one that kept most of that stuff alive and available to the tattoo community after Jerry's death. I don't know Ed personally but I'm 99% sure he's no millionaire. And if he is a millionaire I'd be hard pressed to name another tattooer who deserves it more than him. A lot of people including myself wouldn't even have or know about good tattoos if it wasn't for guys like Ed.

He didn't expect Audigier to whore out his shit like that which is why he sued him, and won.

Ed has done more for tattooing then almost anyone else out there.

[Stewart Robson]

I agree with Mario (again) but I'm trying to ignore most of the back-and-forth boring shit about encouraging beginners like it was some kindergarten project and just say:

Price is dictated by demand.

That's it. If people want your stuff they will pay whatever you ask. Regardless of quality.

But you did lay out your work before some of the best in the world (I don't mean me, btw) and expect it to be well received. Even after you declared it your first attempt. Sell something when you've learned to do it properly, not the first few clunky attempts.

I went to art school and worked as a professional designer/illustrator/etc for almost a decade. I don't think it helped my tattooing too much.

I learned how to take a brief from a client as a professional. I learned a bit of art history at university. Those were plus points.

For me the worst influence art school has on potential tattooers is the sense of entitlement that it fosters.

Art school 'kids' are taught that they have a special vision or gift. Taught that hey have a duty to broadcast their vision to the world and the world should think itself lucky to feel the rays of brilliance from a living genius.

Tattooing and drawing tattoo designs teaches you (if you are lucky) that you are the current incarnation of an artistic lineage and that you are borrowing everything, attempting to take care of it for a while, to pass it on to a later generation. It also teaches you humility and the value of hard work, in spades.

If smiling.politely had wanted advice, they would have asked how to improve the drawing before painting it. Instead they chose to seek acceptance and a confirmation of the 'special vision' probably with the hope of an offer of a tattoo apprenticeship.

Genuinely, I wish you good luck with all those things but if you expect people to pay you money for something, it better be the best you can do. Especially in a saturated market. Be that tattoo style 'art' or whatever you choose to pursue.

[Bubbleberry]

I'm sorry but you are a fucking moron if you think Ed Hardy

has not made many millions and that the licencing of tattoo images to everyone who wants them has not hurt the industry.

Ref how much Ed Hardy makes, well one deal alone saw him lift $7 million in advance royalties. I believe from Blomberg that he gets 15% of all profits in royalties. At around 20 million a year, lets say for 10 years, that's a cool $30 mill.

Does he deserve it - hell yea !!!

Does it hurt the industry - we will just have to wait and see.

Tattooing and drawing tattoo designs teaches you that you are the current incarnation of an artistic lineage and that you are borrowing everything, attempting to take care of it for a while... It also teaches you humility and the value of hard work.

Ok thanks Stewart, that made my day lol

[Ursula]

hahah good point. i did look up some stuff after i made that post. you are right Ed probly is rolling in dough but i still don't think he's hurt the industry more then he's helped.. i came off a little harsher then i meant to.

and stewart's point is spot on

having worked as the counter or floor person i'd rather have someone come in a shop with an ed hardy shirt for a design reference than one of those awful affliction shirts with the crazy tribal-ish shit that's all over them. Or the rip off Hardy style shit you find in China town or the flea market

If someone offered me millions to use my artwork I'd do it too.

I do think it got way crazier then he probably ever though it would be.

[Jake]

I do think it got way crazier then he probably ever though it would be.

You are correct. Quoted from Ed's own site, "In some ways, the popularity of tattooing has backfired for me."

Regardless of all the present day apparel/popularity, imagine where the Bay Area tattoo scene would be if Ed hadn't created Realistic/Tattoo City...

[Shannon Shirley]

I dont believe ED had any idea or even gave a shit.just bein true. Im from the bay, live in AL. Its everywhere.