appropriating ideas from other artists

[hambone]

i've run into that problem here...i have sold some flash to another artist who used to work with me..this artist has since moved on to open their own shop in town...put up my flash on the walls and has done 4-5 pieces from it...including letting the apprentice there do some as well...all very poor quality work for the most part...it bothers the shit outta me that they have done this to my work (not that i'm the greatest tattooer in the world)...but damn..i'm about 2 miles from their shopand the flash is simple shit..and they butcher it...makes me want to break into the shop and take it back...if i tattoo someones flash that i have purchased..i try my hardest to make it close to that piece as possible out of respect to them ya know..i know my limits to what i can and can't do..

i think it's double edged sword...you sell flash,prints,sketch books, etc...knowing that people will copy your stuff and use it to make money..it's not like the old days from what i understand where artist would send each other stencils,rubbing,tracings, etc..of their work...they knew who they were trading with...and those people would trade it off to another artist that they trusted and so on...that is an important part of the history of tattooing...but if you are straight ripping off a tattoo/drawing that you haven't paid for or traded for i think thats where the line is drawn...do your homework and redraw that shit..myself i learned my lesson..it's not worth the measly $60 i made off of the prints to see a bastardized horrible version of my work in the town that i work in....hopefully that made some sense..as it was almost a book long...haha...just my 2 cents

[mario desa]

awesome examples, shane. and you hit on something else i've always wondered about, but have little info on. the relationship between jeery and lieber. a lot of people don't know that jerry's earlier work was a lot different and he basically adopted lieber's style and ran with it. but if you see a lieber sheet, it looks EXACTLY like jerry could've done it. i've heard hardy will be publishing a book on brooklyn joe, i hope it's addressed in there, and maybe we can shed some light on this.

[shaneenholm]

there is a brooklyn joe Lieber book out...the guy who owned long beach tattoo with Capt. jim..it is pricey..but there are alot of pinups and full designs like +hot rocks" (the iwo jima marines tattoo) that were attributed to jerrty...I love they are publishing this shit now....I love what is available to us now...

[mario desa]

yeah i've seen that, forgot about that one. i'm hoping the hardymarks one will be more like the jerry "tattoo master" book, with a lot of personal info, and maybe some history you know? also, i've seen photos from a friend's collection of jerry's entire portfolio. and a few tattoos that are attributed to jerry were actually done by johnny walker, in jerry's shop. there's photos of johnny doing the tattoos.

[shaneenholm]

here are a few lieber ones...I think jerry got alot of him...I have a letter from lieber to jerry or jerry to liber with a mermaid drawing around here somewhere...I do not know why they called him Brooklyn joe(probably born there) but most of what i know was he tattooed in the bay area.....He was teamed up with Pop eddy for aperiod of time..and Eddy died in 57.....I have a machine pop eddy built let me see if i can get a photo of it

It is actually a Jensen special that was modified...Jonesy coils...

Both pop eddand lievber built machines..they (i think ) had them cast togehtwer as liebers most known for kinda a Waters#6 model lookin thing and i had one that pop eddy stamped his name in too...anyway I always saw his influence on jerry....

[shaneenholm]

that rose on the left is a good example..take the center most forwaerd line out of it..and you have the tri petal center that i think was born out of misreading acetates...it was not uncommon for these guys to leave stuff off their acetates ...i guess they figured if you were all that you woulda just fixed it....ya follow?

[MsRad]

Regarding our discussion here.........

I guess as a collector I would hope that the custom pieces that people have drawn specifically for me

would not be copied by anyone and used on someone else BUT I guess I have no real control over that!

It would suck though....but I know it is done all the time!

Example..... Nikki Ballssssssssss and I were talking and she asked me if i had a Bunny with butterfly wings (a Bunnyfly)

I did not so she drew one up specifically for me....as other artists have done other Bunny "themed" tattoos for me!

Now if someone else had a bunny with butterfly wings I really could have no argument with that BUT.......if it was the same

exact tattoo I guess it would make me feel a little slighted! It would have to be tweaked a fair amount to make me feel

like it was okay!

one of my tattoos was a design that was ripped off from another artist (none of the artists on here and i'm not about to name names), unbeknownst to me. the original artist contacted me, as well as the artist who did it on me, both sharing their side of the stories. i've gone back and have been tattooed by this same person since, as i figured they were young, inexperienced, and the other designs that have been done have been really basic or really customized (as in i've brought in materials for the design to be based off of). i figured it was a stupid beginners mistake that wouldn't happen again.

however, i've learned that it basically has happened again, though not on me. you can see the differences in both designs, however, they're pretty damn similar to each other, and the original artist has called my artist out on it. while i'm quite close to the person who has been doing this, at the same time, as a client, it makes me question the work being done. i know this artist has a lot of potential talent, is extremely creative, and has had to fight for their career. however, it makes me feel uneasy, and it puts me in a hard spot, somewhere between professionion and friendship. then again, since i am not the client who had this second piece done, perhaps there is more to the storie, and possibly, this client asked for this specific tattoo (though both artists are here in the bay area so i don't understand why you wouldn't just go to the original one). i just feel like i'm in a weird place.

or i could just go to Scott/blackheart more often...

[Scott Sylvia]

this is pretty simple in the act of self promoting you publish your stuff and it is public domain. i dont mean in a legal way but your putting it out there for people to see. this business is full of no talent ass clowns who search hi and low for influences to print off the computer and trace.. haha. as for flash thats the whole point. cant get pissed if someone sucks at doing your designs be glad you dont. you paint them to sell that s the whole deal. now if you look at someones design and try to copy it you are ripping it off, if you look at it and it inspires you to draw eagles all day thats influenced. we are sponges you cant help look at eds eagles and not love the way the wings have tension and try to recreate that energy but not line for line, thats just not right. finally just learn how to draw it stay up all night chain smoke get drunk listen to tom waits bone machine and dig in and learn how malone did it or how ed makes it look easy its up to you and fuck everyone else......much love scott

[dari]

the original artist contacted me, as well as the artist who did it on me, both sharing their side of the stories.

ewww, how awkward. Why did they make it your problem?

[MsRad]

ewww, how awkward. Why did they make it your problem?

it was EXTREMELY awkward. i was more pissed at the original artist (who was a total dick and jerk in my opinion) than i was at mine.

[Lochlan]

Here's a link for a similar thread.

[Jennifer Stell]

I have heard Richard and Bob both say "it's all stealing", it's using someone elses concept, taking it and putting your own spin on it, so "it's not what's your stealing, cause it's all the same, it's who your borrowing ideas from."

[irezumi]

Appropriating Ideas vs Biting/stealing/personal style?

Filip Leu on biting/stealing;

".. it's like blues songs; they all use the same chords and progressions, the same foundations."

"I try to think of it another way. Let's say I'm working on a water style, and I'm having a hard time cracking it. but a bunch of other guys pick up on the same kind of water and they crack it, and figure out how to put it on the arm all perfectly. When I see it, the first thimg I'm gonna do is rip them off and use what they figured out because I didn't manage to do it on my own."

"As far as people doing 'my style', well, the practical side is there's no way to stop people from copying, unless you decide not to publish anything and then that's a shame because you are not sharing your work with the rest of us. So you really can't stop them."

[MsRad]

is there a difference though between using someone's style and copying a specific piece? just throwing this out there.

[irezumi]

is there a difference though between using someone's style and copying a specific piece? just throwing this out there.

Definitely. But they are certainly not far apart.

[Scott Sylvia]

i guess this is a matter of your intention. if you rip it off cuz you dont want to have to draw it i think that sucks but using it to further your kill is somthing everyone does. i ripped off jerry roses till i could draw my own.. but i can draw my own, simple example but its the intention.

[Jennifer Stell]

i guess this is a matter of your intention. if you rip it off cuz you dont want to have to draw it i think that sucks but using it to further your kill is somthing everyone does. i ripped off jerry roses till i could draw my own.. but i can draw my own, simple example but its the intention.

Yup, what he said...

[irezumi]

i guess this is a matter of your intention. if you rip it off cuz you dont want to have to draw it i think that sucks but using it to further your kill is somthing everyone does. i ripped off jerry roses till i could draw my own.. but i can draw my own, simple example but its the intention.

I agree completely. Using what you learn to jumpboard off of that into your own thing.

[matt cee]

I agree completely. Using what you learn to jumpboard off of that into your own thing.

ive learned alot that way.

[The Iron Wolf]

I think if the artist makes tattoo design of his own, original and cool ...it should not be reproduced by copying from photos on internet and stuff...

Another thing if artist makes a flash set and sells it...as soon as it hits a market it becomes for grabs to everyone...and can be copied, reproduced, resold...and such. But it should always be associated with the original author...and bring him if not the money at least respect and recognition...

Copying someones work and adding your name on it is the worst you can do...and should be not tolerated...

[Petri Aspvik]

what happened to a tattoo reppresents that moment in time...not the endless...touch it up...change it etc....

lets just get tattooed and love it.....no matter what it is....even if it is misspelled....I love that shit....lets put the fun back in this shit...I have a fever....I am probably rambling so i am gonna go take some tylenol and rest my neck

Great stuff you said there Shane as in the rest of the topic, but will just fast comment on this because it reminded me of the tat Sailor Andy did for me, that was old Cap flash/stencil (still cant remember which is was, fuck) http://www.lastsparrowtattoo.com/forum/war-stories/41-whats-your-favorite-tattoo-your-body-page4.html#post4103

But, I think the tiger had its paw around the snakes head. I said to Andy something like

Dude, you forgot to put the paw there! (this was like weeks after)

So he just laughed and said something like It has been cut off, deal with it!

:D Funny shit! So, yeah, I agree with you Shane.

[Petri Aspvik]

awesome examples, shane. and you hit on something else i've always wondered about, but have little info on. the relationship between jeery and lieber. a lot of people don't know that jerry's earlier work was a lot different and he basically adopted lieber's style and ran with it. but if you see a lieber sheet, it looks EXACTLY like jerry could've done it. i've heard hardy will be publishing a book on brooklyn joe, i hope it's addressed in there, and maybe we can shed some light on this.

If you read the last TAM issue where I interviewed Sailor Jerry Swallow, I think if I remember correctly (the interview was originally like 65 pages long!) he talks about this in there. Check it out!

If it wasnt in there, it has to be in the original and I can send the part to you if you like? I havent even read the magazine version so I dont know how much Crash had to cut for it to fit the mag.

[Petri Aspvik]

But, on to the topic. As shaneenholm talked about originators and the new generation, for me, as a collector, I agree because there is a enormous romantic aspect in all of this. It is the lineage in there, the feeling of togetherness. It is for some reason many times lost in the new works you see. Because of course as it has been said in this topic, there is a difference between the old sharing of info and the new way. As I wrote in my blog post about Dan Higgs about people seem to act like they want to be the kings, the myths themselfs. Just instantly elevate themselfs to those same romantic pedastals, and not actually build their careers and desings to that level that some day their peers and the clients can lift them there if they want to and "deserve it" (I think in the end of the day everyone who puts their heart into it deserves it). Its like some matrix type shit. Just plug yourself in (go to facebook, myspace etc) and copy the "knowledge".

It bores me and saddens me as a client, because I want to feel the fucking mystery. And as it can be seen, its not about who does the most original shit. All the greats, Coleman, Lieber, Higgs, Hardy, Collins, Devita, Jensen, Stoney and so on, they were influenced. But they also respected.

At least it seems like that. The aura is different. I could try to say more but all of this comes out in my blog, so I dont have anything more to say really...

edit. I wanted to ad. When I talk about that I need more mystery etc., it doesnt mean I JUST want some weird occult stuff. But the mystery can be just honest pure work. Detication and good heart. You know. In these days, THAT is romantic.

[MsRad]

But, on to the topic. As shaneenholm talked about originators and the new generation, for me, as a collector, I agree because there is a enormous romantic aspect in all of this. It is the lineage in there, the feeling of togetherness. It is for some reason many times lost in the new works you see. Because of course as it has been said in this topic, there is a difference between the old sharing of info and the new way. As I wrote in my blog post about Higgs about people seem to act like they want to be the kings, the myths themselfs. Just instantly elevate themselfs to those same romantic pedastals, and not actually build their careers and desings to that level that some day their peers and the clients can lift them there if they want to and "deserve it" (I think in the end of the day everyone who puts their heart into it deserves it). Its like some matrix type shit. Just plug yourself in (go to facebook, myspace etc) and copy the "knowledge".

It bores me and saddens me as a client, because I want to feel the fucking mystery. And as it can be seen, its not about who does the most original shit. All the greats, Coleman, Lieber, Higgs, Hardy, Collins, Devita, Jensen, Stoney and so on, they were influenced. But they also respected.

At least it seems like that. The aura is different. I could try to say more but all of this comes out in my blog, so I dont have anything more to say really...

edit. I wanted to ad. When I talk about that I need more mystery etc., it doesnt mean I JUST want some weird occult stuff. But the mystery can be just honest pure work. Detication and good heart. You know. In these days, THAT is romantic.

by mystery, you mean the mystery revolving around the creativity of the tattoo? sorry if this seems obvious, but i'm interested in reading more of what you have to say on this "mystery" aspect. i think your response, in general, was very articulate, and i completely agree and empathize with it.

[Petri Aspvik]

That is I think one of THE QUESTIONS. I dont know if I can give a simple answer, but it is the way you feel when you look at some old Owen Jensen flash, like this one.

It has IT. There is something in that flash that you just can FEEL. And it lacks in so many new ones you see. WHY it is there, its pretty hard to say. Depends on a person I guess.

For me its partly the fact that I like to uphold traditions, they mean something to me. Its the blue print for US, as humans. And I think its magical. It makes you feel closer to the world. And when you ad to that the aura of what tattoos where, a sort of secret club which made you part of something, then its just cool. Theres a another aspect that ads to the aura. And when you think about that important a tattoo can be to a person, then I like the aura around it to be something that is respectful. Not something that is copied just because someone thinks it makes them instant king of the hill. Like they could buy soul. When you just have to show it to have it.

Be true to yourself and your feelings. I think then you can make us all, as human feel connected to EACH OTHER. That to me is the mystery and aura in tattooing.

It's the blue print for our souls

That is the best way I can put it now.