Cultural Appropriation and tattoos

[RoryQ]

I take the point regarding the difference between cultural appropriation versus cross cultural sharing, that's fair.

I would be curious to hear someone like Gloyne's take on the issue of things like Indian lady head war bonnet tattoos etc.

I've got to admit that when it comes to any kind of pin up, whether it's an Indian, geisha, sexy genie or whatever that I don't think of it as saying that much about the sexual predilections or views of the wearer. I kind of think of them as being tattoo iconography probably removed, at this point, from their original meaning. In the same way as a Rock of Ages might rarely have a Christian undertone for people wearing them these days.

If I see, for example, that awesome big Valerie Vargas Indian dancer backpiece I am not thinking of it as a sexualised image in the same way as I would a really realistic black and grey tattoo of a nude. I'm thinking more about the history of traditional tattooing, flash, etc than anything else.

[irezumi]

I'm gonna get a battle royale of a squaw pinup vs asian pinup vs latina pinup.

Ban me bitches.

[s3rndpt]

I think there is a certain nuance that gets lost in discussions about cultural appropriation. There's a difference between cultural exchange (e.g. Western people getting Japanese-style tattoos) and cultural appropriation.

There's more to it than just, "did this design come from another culture?" That alone isn't offensive. Does this design have specific spiritual / cultural significance that is lost on outsiders (the Maori Tā moko)? Is this tattoo inaccurate in a significant way that shows a lack of respect for the culture (Native American women in a headdress)? Is the subject of the tattoo from a cultural group that is subjected to oppression or violence today in a manner depicted in the tattoo (gypsy head tattoos [beheading], Native American pin-up girls [sexual assault])?

From what I understand, dreamcatcher tattoos generally aren't offensive because they don't have a specific spiritual meaning and have been given to outsiders for decades. Whereas a sexualized woman in a headdress is offensive because the headdress had specific cultural meaning and because Native American women are subjected to sexual assault at an incredibly high rate.

Deciding what tattoos you're comfortable getting is a very personal choice... I do not judge anyone here or intend to speak badly about your tattoos. I am only critical about what I would get on my own body. Even if I don't fully understand why a tattoo is offensive to members of a culture, I prefer to err on the side of respect (even if it's "over-PC") than offense.

Sorry this got so long, and sorry in advance if I offended anyone. This is something I have thought a lot about.

After following this entire thread, and not knowing exactly how to articulate my feelings, I find I am in total agreement with graybones here. I don't have a problem with using the symbols of a different culture, as long as it is done respectfully and with an understanding of what those symbols actually symbolize.

And I would never, ever presume to judge someone else's choices--I can only apply my own morals to myself, not everyone else around me. I choose to assume the best of everyone, including their choices of body decoration.

[RoryQ]

I got out the book I was referring to and I see the term that some use for Maori tattooing applied to non-Maori is kirituhi. Couldn't quite recall it.

Great, scholarly, book by the way:-

Mau Moko: The World of Maori Tattoo: Ngahuia Te Awekotuku: 9780143566854: Amazon.com: Books

Quite a lot of discussion about kirituhi, attitudes to Maori tattooing on non-Maori, whether it is 'meaningless' in lacking the cultural signifiers it has for a Maori etc.

[Bunny Switchblade]

I do my best to offend as many people as possible with my tattoos.........

But in all seriousness.....I am sure I do have some tattoos that would be offensive to a lot of different people or groups!

I really never intentionally had myself tattooed to offend anyone but more so because I generally don't care what people think of me or my tattoos! If I thought it was a good idea at the time I did it.......and have no regrets about any of my tattoos!

[CultExciter]

I haven't really wanted to participate in this thread, I don't know, it seems like sometimes we are forcing an issue, even though I wholly understand the idea of power dynamics and cultural appropriation. I just believe some aspects of tattoo imagery are definitely cross cultural, especially when you think of where they came from. Would I get traditional Maori tattooing (something I know nothing about)? No. But I would get something in the vein of Leo Zulueta because of how he transitioned it. The same with the idea of an pretty young lady in a Native American headdress. It is wearable because I a) like pretty women b) like history. But that also comes through the adoption of images that were developed by the classic tattooers.

I have a Confederate General tattooed on my leg. I'm not a bigot or sympathizer, nor do I want the South to rise again. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person who has this person tattooed on them either. But, J.E.B. Stuart is a relative of mine, and I grew up in southern Virginia, on a tobacco farm. As stated before, it resonates with me, on some level, plus the dude had the best beard.

I don't think there are concrete answers to be found. I just think people should do what they are comfortable with.

[polliwog]

I've got to admit that when it comes to any kind of pin up, whether it's an Indian, geisha, sexy genie or whatever that I don't think of it as saying that much about the sexual predilections or views of the wearer. I kind of think of them as being tattoo iconography probably removed, at this point, from their original meaning.

I understand this and feel like I'm willing to make concessions for tattooing iconography that I wouldn't make for anything else. The problem becomes that people who haven't spent much time looking at tattoos, which is most people, wouldn't necessarily understand that they're a nod to a style of tattoo.

I think it's mostly down to taking responsibility for what you choose to get tattooed on you.

[deadsp0t]

I understand this and feel like I'm willing to make concessions for tattooing iconography that I wouldn't make for anything else. The problem becomes that people who haven't spent much time looking at tattoos' date=' which is most people, wouldn't necessarily understand that they're a nod to a style of tattoo. I think it's mostly down to taking responsibility for what you choose to get tattooed on you.[/quote']

Sounds like a 'them' problem not an 'us' problem.

Being tattooed means you will hear ppl judge you at some point even if they do not know you're tattooed.. They form opinions simply because you have tattoos, because of the images you choose, placement and even who did it without knowing anything at all about tattooing.

I don't believe most ppl get tattooed to offend certain groups or religions, race(imagery, mixing/combining images etc), if they are offended or their feelings are hurt because of what I choose for me..then too bad.

If I can be deported or sent home from a country because someone's feelings were hurt over my tattoo, I probably didn't need to be there.

[polliwog]

By "take responsibility" I mean "be mindful" or something to that effect. Like, don't get a potentially controversial tattoo (yes, I know that all tattoos are controversial to some people) if you're not ready to deal with the fallout. I'm not, so I won't. Some people are, so they can.

"Too bad if people are offended" sounds good in theory, but it's really hard in practice.

Just trying not to be a douchebag/stupid.

[Kahlan]

I would think it's obvious they are lacking that ability, since passing judgment is one of those things that prevent one from reaching that goal of mindfulness.

That's why art is so beautiful. There are no limitations, and should never be.

Not getting something because it offends another person puts restrictions on them and myself. They will never learn and become a better person, and people can't express themselves properly to feel comfortable in their own skin. Everyone loses.

And it's not actually hurting anyone.....really. They'll live.

[Mark Bee]

And the thread turns nasty.

[irezumi]

White guilt thread.

[tatB]

You're failing IMHO.

Dave would you mind expanding on this?

[tatB]

@daveborjes

well said. from my point of view i think you and @polliwog are closer to being on the same page than you think. but i could be misinterpreting both of your posts...

[Tesseracts]

For me it's not all about what other people think. I wouldn't want something racist on my skin, even if nobody else ever sees it. I wouldn't get any kind of swastika, (even a non-Nazi one) on any part of the body, no matter how cool it looks. I just don't want it. I don't know how it's douchey to not want something. Although, I do also care what other people think. I'm not the world's biggest rebel and I'm not ok with strangers assuming I'm racist.

[cookietruck]

When did being tattooed come off as being racist?!?!?!?

Am I missing something?

he said tattoos of swastikas

[Tesseracts]

When did being tattooed come off as being racist?!?!?!?

Am I missing something?

I didn't say tattoos in general are racist, it depends on the tattoo and how it's interpreted. To use my example there's a lot of swastikas out there and plenty of people would assume those are racist. They would probably be wrong, but that's what they would think. I know if I get any tattoo at all a lot of people will assume I'm an idiot, and I can live with that, but I'd like to avoid having anyone think I'm a Nazi.

[tatB]

i think the swastika is a very good example of cultural appropriation.

[irezumi]

Let me tell you the story of Right Hand, Left Hand. It's a tale of good and evil. Hate: it was with this hand that Cane iced his brother. Love: these five fingers, they go straight to the soul of man. The right hand: the hand of love. The story of life is this: static. One hand is always fighting the other hand, and the left hand is kicking much ass. I mean, it looks like the right hand, Love, is finished. But hold on, stop the presses, the right hand is coming back. Yeah, he got the left hand on the ropes, now, that's right. Ooh, it's a devastating right and Hate is hurt, he's down. Left-Hand Hate KOed by Love.

FIGHT THE POWER

[CultExciter]

Ay Sal, why ain't you got any brothers on the wall?

[polliwog]

well said. from my point of view i think you and @polliwog are closer to being on the same page than you think. but i could be misinterpreting both of your posts...

I think you're right. This has been a good reminder to spend less time online, though.

[misterJ]

should have quoted this, but the person who said it was 100% correct IMO. White guilt...

I used to be friendly with someone who was all about the Carlos Mencia (he probably stole it, awful stealing comic) joke in which he asks a white guy about his tribal tattoo then asks what tribe he is from. har har har

My initial gut reaction to this is disgust because all these complainers are the first to claim that america is this great melting pot and that they just don't see color (+ Stephen Colbert :D) then the minute someone like me gets a giant japanese tattoo, an indian head, a gypsy pinup, ganesha, etc. etc. tattooed on them they are the first to be ever so outraged.

Phony outrage makes me ashamed of white people (not getting side tracked)

I always understood my love for tattoos and tattooing as my way of connecting to a primitive and forgotten world. This is something that humans have been doing for thousands of years and regardless of imagery, transcends basic borders. I say this as an atheist, who may be replacing a use of religion to connect to the ancient world with tattoos. I feel as though being able to speak to your tattoos, and the heritage of the imagery in the tattoo culture (oh yea, forgot that's a culture too.) sidesteps this shallow attack of appropriation. I believe this need to connect to a primitive being explains how most of tattoo imagery depicts warriors of various cultures (indian braves/ samurai/ vikings) and even pin-ups being born on the noses of bomber planes.

I have a giant love for american traditional tattoos, but with their strong nautical and or military themes I guess I can never get one without appropriating because I am not a sailor nor have I served. Oh well... sucks to be me.

And as for racism, it is in the damn name. If it is racist it must be attacking a race. All these dumb bloggers/ complainers calling things like the Ganesh tattoos racist when it represents Hinduism a religion not a race.

people with white guilt should be shot.