Uncomfortable/disempowering tattoo experiences

[tatB]

Maybe reading comprehension is the problem then, idk, because I also stated several times it wasn't her fault at all.

A lot of us are reading what you wrote and interpreting it the same way. Based on all of your statements I feel you lack empathy for the situation.

[SnowyPlover]

So clearly we all agree the tattooer was wrong.

How does everyone feel it should have been handled? The way it was handled?

I feel that's part of the problem of you totally not getting it - how she reacted or didn't react to the sexual comment during a session is not up for our judgement! She was sharing her experience and handled it the best way she knew at the time. Your comment that "silence is consent" seriously gave innuendo that a person is asking for more comments if she doesn't say anything. Everyone is different, sure, maybe you would have said something, but stop getting all judge-y to those that don't. It's complicated, especially because it is sexual in nature and the person on the receiving end of the comment was in a vulnerable state.

I think all woman have had some kind of sexual comment at some point in their lives. I know I have, however, I don't have a blanket policy how I react - it depends, where, the context, the comment, the situation. I've never had sexually slanted comment during a tattoo session and I've been getting tattooed since the early 90's. So if shit like that is happening in a shop, that is what's wrong, not how the woman responds to it.

[Pugilist]

It's a good thing Rosa Parks and MLK didn't think the same as you guys. It's a good thing the founding fathers of the US didn't think this way.

Always speak up.

I promise you that you are not on the side of Rosa Parks and MLK in this conversation, and that it's genuinely one of the most offensive things I have ever read on this message board to see you make this comparison. Rosa Parks and MLK were tireless in their articulation of the power imbalances that exist in our society, and the ways in which dominant groups silence marginalized ones. Pretending that their resistance is equated with "always speak up" with no analysis of power asymmetry, structural misogyny, and the fact that women HAVE SCARY FUCKING EXPERIENCES TALKING BACK TO CREEPY MEN is both painfully stupid and morally appalling. And that is the last thing I will say here, because I gave up internet arguments as a new year's resolution two years ago. But I just could not let this go.

PS it gives me faith in this board to see so many like-minded folks calling this out, and not just women. <3 you guys.

[deadsp0t]

Always nice to see ppl standing up, even if it is directed towards me, bravo.

Carry on.

[Bunny Switchblade]

You feel uncomfortable then tell the guy to stop.....get up....and walk out!

I'm not saying that silence is consent BUT if you say nothing then nothing changes!

I have been a tattooed female for 30 years now and I have heard all kinds of shit come out of tattooers mouths both male and female! The business has changed drastically I guess BUT when I was first getting tattooed.....it was always assumed if you weren't tough enough to take the banter then MAYBE you shouldn't get tattooed because the world was gonna give you a whole lot more shit about being a tattooed woman than the banter you were gonna get in the shop.....including this statement!

I was terrified to walk into the shop when i got my first tattoo in fact the two ladies that went with me didn't go in and I went in on my own! I had heard all kinds of things about tattoo shops and although they were cool to me I am sure they weren't to everyone! Anyway.....what i am saying is they didn't offer wine and cheese like the "salons" do now! Most were street shops and this kind of comment probably would have been said as you were walking through the door instead of them waiting for you to get into the chair!

I am sorry that you had a bad experience BUT this is honestly mild compared to some of the things I have seen and probably even said to men and women in tattoo shops!

I am a year and a half into my apprenticeship....and I like women! Would I make a comment like this? Probably not.....but I can't honestly say! I do know I have said much worse......it's a tattoo shop after all!

If people don't like my opinion oh well.....but don't try to change it because you won't! ;)

And of course there weren't tattoo shops on every corner of the city either so if you wanted to be tattooed then you had to deal with whatever was thrown your way!

I HATE what these stupid ass TV shows have done to this business.....I enjoyed the way it was much more....too bad the new generation had it ruined for them!

[spookysproul]

Always nice to see ppl standing up, even if it is directed towards me, bravo.

Carry on.

After reading this entire thread and double-checking the posts, I can say that you are not getting this. Before you go off in the direction of reading comprehension or something of that nature, I am above average intelligence and possess a significantly higher level of reading comprehension than I see you do, judging solely from your choppy grammar and punctuation.

You can in no way whatsoever, under any circumstances, speak assuredly about what she "should have" done. Yes, you are correct in that if no one tells him what he does is wrong he will almost certainly never realize it on his own and self-correct. However, when you are getting tattooed by someone you are in a very vulnerable position. This person is doing something that is, for all intents and purposes, permanent and possibly holds great significance for you. That puts them in a position of extreme power over you, especially because you went to them and theoretically chose them over any number of other people to make this for you.

Now, add to that the fact that this person has made an unwelcome and lewd comment with the underlying tone -whether intentional or no- that they can make whatever comment they want to you and there's not much you can do about it, and that puts you at an extreme psychological disadvantage for speaking up for yourself.

On top of that, when she comes to look for people who have had similar experiences and vent about how she was mistreated, she has narrow-minded fools coming out of the anonymity of the internet to tell her that, wait a minute, this is mainly her fault for not going extremely far out of her comfort zone and correcting the behavior of someone who has the significant psychological upper-hand in the situation. You cannot equate her situation to one of where your artist showed you something and you didn't speak up about not liking a portion of it. She was in the predicament of actually being tattooed and the person who was tattooing her sexually harassed her. Whether you like it or not, sex is a very private thing to most people and not discussed openly or casually with someone who is ostensibly a stranger. That can be a very violating and even traumatic experience, ESPECIALLY when this person is doing something to you that has a deep significance and will be with you permanently.

And before you start talking about what you would've done and how you would've handled it and how you would've told the guy to "back off, bub", please take a step back and look at yourself. I can think of multiple times on this board - including one interaction with myself - where you've made a bold, poorly-thought-out statement and back-pedaled immediately when someone called you out on it.

It's not always so easy to stand your ground when you're put on the spot. Please consider the circumstances before getting mouthy on the internet.

[MadeIndelible]

Everybody's wrong. Everybody's right. Everyone shut up and retire to your respective style of tattoo shop, and if you have had this happen to you, go to someone else next time. Oh, and do your homework before getting tattooed.

[Zillah]

Wow.

When I made the original thread, I had no idea that it would turn out to be a big debate; I was thinking that it would be therapeutic for myself and for anyone else that had experienced something like that, to share the anecdote, and encourage others to share theirs.

About speaking up- that would have been great, if I had felt safe to do so. I think that now that I am 12 years older, more mature, more confident, and more assertive, I would have -at the very least- told him afterwards that I didn't appreciate that bullshit thank you very much. The situation I was in though, as a young woman, alone in a tattoo shop with a guy named 'Graham' who worked at 'Graham's Tattoo Studio' (now long closed), I didn't feel okay. I felt afraid. So I didn't. Thank you to those that got that, and wrote eloquent responses.

It's all very well to say that I should be tougher, or stronger, or more assertive, or be able to fly, or whatever... but I was who I was, and I think that tattoos should be for everyone. I don't think there should be certain class of people who tattooing should be limited to, e.g. those who can 'take it like a man' or whatever, although I understand that attitude, because some women have had to fight long and hard to be treated as equals in a male-dominated field.

Silence never equals consent when there is a power imbalance. The person in the more powerful position is responsible to ensure that their behaviour is welcome. This guy could have made a number of jokes, even some lewd jokes, that were not about my body, which I may not have enjoyed but would not have been offended by.

The 'large cohesive upper arm tattoo' (@HaydenRose ;) ) that I am getting in a week or so is being done by a professional who I have met and had a lengthy consultation with, who works with others in an open studio, and comes highly recommended. I have a bit more tattoo nous now. But for those young ladies (and men) who go into a studio and point to something and say, "I want that one", or with less sense who get upside down tattoos, or pop culture references that will disappear in 5 minutes, or whatever, I want them to have an enjoyable, safe experience that they can think of fondly and get lasered off later.

[Delicious]

@Zillah, I'll bring this back to topic.

When I got my flapper on my chest, the tattoo artist basically had to touch right above/ on my breast (not like fondling but just had to stretch out the skin on my chest, etc.) and while it was mildly uncomfortable for me, it was nothing compared to what happened to you. The only acknowledgement that it might even be a bit awkward was his sorry as he first touched me. Nothing too serious but I was 19 and a bit shy.

Now as for the silence as consent... highly disagree with that statement. Even the examples with Rosa Parks and MLK are WTF moments. Silence is never consent, never acceptance. Silence is taught, is a self preservation technique when there is a threat to speaking out. I was silent, when I was teased/bullied by girls who I knew could beat my ass if I said what I really thought about them. I was silent when I knew I would get slapped by my parents if I said what I wanted to. I was silent as groups of men talked horrible things about the way I look and what I should do sexually because I am so ugly to them and therefore desperate.

I only ever speak out when I know that I cannot bear it anymore, when I am willing to take the risk of bodily or psychological harm, or when I know I have a fighting chance. Silence does not mean I consent to my treatment, it means I am too afraid of the consequences to speak up.

and that's why deadspot missed the point.

[HaydenRose]

Shit... I just wrote up a whole response to this thread-derailment and lost it trying to post...

In summary:

@Zillah *thumbs up*

Let's drop this whole stupid argument.

I'm tired.

Blah blah blah story about getting my chest/shoulders tattooed.

Jenkum jokes being passed around.

Proof that professional tattooers can be crude and professional.

Boundaries blah blah blah.

Just keep getting tattooed and have fun.

[DJDeepFried]

I hate to pile on @deadsp0t, but I do want to make a couple points. I've heard you say "silence is consent" on this and other threads, and I don't think you realize what a loaded term this is. Google "silence" "consent" and "rape," and you'll see what I mean. Just in case you're wondering what all this outrage is about. All that stuff about Rosa Parks/MLK I'll chalk up to a bad analogy and leave it at that. Except to say that when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

@Zillah, I'm a big burly guy and I probably would've done the exact same thing in that situation: bit my tongue, get my tattoo, and got the f*ck out of there (but no tip). So many ways that situation could have ended badly for you, sometimes it's smart to keep your mouth shut.

@Bunny Switchblade, not to get off-topic or pick a fight here, but I'm getting a little sick of hearing this particular sentiment. I hear what you're saying, but put it this way: there are dives and fancy wine bars, and the existence of the latter shouldn't ruin your enjoyment of the former. Grungy old-school street shops are awesome -- and I hope they never go away -- but the private/custom/boutique-type ones exist because there's a market for it. Speaking as a non-tattooer, it seems to me that everyone who wants a tattoo should be able to get one, how and where they want it. And that people from all walks of life getting tattoos is good for business – even if it's the dreaded "soccer mom" getting a butterfly on her ankle. It's like with bands when people say, "I was into so-and-so before they were cool." Why should I give a f*ck if what I like is popular or not? Bands want to sell records and make money so they can keep making art. Tattooers do too.

[deadsp0t]

It makes me sad to think some of you are raising children to be victims and just accept shit, fuck that.

[tatB]

It makes me sad to think some of you are raising children to be victims and just accept shit, fuck that.

You are a strange one.

[Gregor]

It makes me sad to think some of you are raising children to be victims and just accept shit, fuck that.

Pure trollage , just stop man .

[growltiger]

It makes me sad to think some of you are raising children to be victims and just accept shit, fuck that.

You are not listening. Take a step back and reread what people are trying to tell you. You don't have to agree but trying to understand might make this a more productive argument.

Sent from my GT-I8190N using Tapatalk

[iowagirl]

I don't think it's about being a victim. It's about knowing there's a time/place for certain reactions/ways to handle things. Just b/c you fight back and say NO I WILL NOT ACCEPT THIS...doesn't always mean the other person listens, and it may not put YOU in a good position, depending on the situation you're in. You have to weigh the pros and cons of everything. It's smart to observe and use your instincts.

[Bunny Switchblade]

I hate to pile on

@Bunny SwitchbladeSpeaking as a non-tattooer,

You hit the nail on the head........I wouldn't expect you to understand.....

I'll go back to watching the blog videos!

No fight here......honestly this thread is a battle not worth even discussing here anymore.....at least for me! ;)

I said my 2 cents and stand by what i feel.....

[DJDeepFried]

You hit the nail on the head........I wouldn't expect you to understand.....

I'll go back to watching the blog videos!

No fight here......honestly this thread is a battle not worth even discussing here anymore.....at least for me! ;)

I said my 2 cents and stand by what i feel.....

No, I get where you're coming from. We just see it a different way. And like I said I don't work in a shop and am relatively new to getting tattooed. When I was a young'un and just getting into punk rock you had to brave the record store clerk who was way cooler than you and let you know it. You felt like you'd discovered something on your own -- that you earned it. Nowadays the kids can find everything they want on Spotify. Thing is, that's just the way it is now. Everything changes. You can wax nostalgic about the past but that's not bringing it back. I've chosen to embrace change, and I think I'm happier that way.

Anyway, Ed Hardy opened the first boutique shop in the mid-'70s, so it hasn't been just bikers and bad-asses all this time. I'm not sure when the good old days of tattoos being all rough and tumble really was anyway. But I'm not trying to impress or intimidate anyone or be part of some cool kid tattoo "scene" as our pal @Victor keeps calling it.

Blaming it on the tattoo shows seems kinda silly to me. Did MTV kill rock & roll? Seems to me there are way more amazing artists out there than there have ever been, and partly that's because the industry has changed and tattoos have gotten more popular.

[Tesseracts]

I think some people enjoy being outside the mainstream. There's some resentment in any subculture once it becomes popular. That's understandable but I don't think the deeper parts will disappear entirely. Could be wrong though.

[Lionel Cosgrove]

scott sylvia is constantly staring at my dick while he tattoos me. should i say something?

[Joe Stratford]

Just keep getting tattooed and have fun.

Amen!

@Zillah Looking forward to seeing what you get! Any clues as to what or by whom? I hope that you have a great experience with this one (and subsequent others!)

The only uncomfortable experience I had was with Chad K, 2 and a half hours on my elbow NONSTOP! the guy is a machine, haha. He's a tuff cookie, but boy was it worth it!! :)

[Zillah]

@Zillah Looking forward to seeing what you get! Any clues as to what or by whom? I hope that you have a great experience with this one (and subsequent others!)

Thanks :) I'm getting a koi, done by Nick Agnew of Kingsland Ink on April 8th, seems too far away, can't wait! It's my graduation present to myself. My ceremony is the next day, and my mum is like, "won't people be hugging you a lot? That will be sore!"

[SeeSea]

scott sylvia is constantly staring at my dick while he tattoos me. should i say something?

Depends. Did he say, "I hope you don't mind but I'm staring down your pants at your tits dick while I'm tattooing you."

Or, "I hope you don't mind but I'm staring down your pants at your dick while I'm tattooing you because I think a panther would look great down there."

[Bunny Switchblade]

scott sylvia is constantly staring at my dick while he tattoos me. should i say something?

If you think he is staring at your dick then ask him if you should maybe whip it out and see what he says..... ;)

I just hope for your sake there isn't a hammer close by! :D

[Synesthesia]

I've been fortunate enough to have pretty good experiences with all tattooers/piercers I've been to. The only time I felt uncomfortable was during my first tattoo. It was only about 20 minutes, but the guy I went to didn't say anything to me during the entire procedure and I just felt like he was rushing through it all. I made an appointment with him, but he treated the whole thing like a walk-in...quick and rushed stencil, just powered through the tattoo. It wouldn't have been so bad if I had more tattoo experience, but I was nervous enough getting my first one, and then the stuff he was doing made me feel like I was annoying him or doing something wrong. It was a weird experience.