Do we really need apprentices?

[Hogrider]

I'd just like to say something about taking on strangers as apprentices as well. By teaching someone your craft you are creating competition for yourself. In my cyber investigations into tattooland i have read of a couple of cases over here in the UK where an artist has apprenticed an aspiring tattooer, only to have them open up their own shop in the same town and take their client list with them.

!

I don't know about England, but in America you can put a no-compete clause in an employment agreement. I've signed several of them myself. I don't know why you couldn't do it for an apprenticeship. However, since I don't tattoo and have no plans to start at my advanced age, I really don't have a dog in the fight.

[Shaun1105]

So find a shop that you love, get tattooed there and ask if they would be willing to take you on as an apprentice for 2-3 years, if you would be willing to pay them ( what ever amt) you agree upon, $10-$15,000 a year, let's say.

Unless you just want them to give it to you, which seems to be what everybody wants.

This brings to mind a question for tattooers: If an aspiring apprentice has said $15k, would they be better off

A. Following the above advice and finding someone who will apprentice them for cash. Or,

B. Using $3000 to get a bunch of tattoos from great artists and using the balance to get 'unbusy', then work on drawing and painting all day everyday?

I'm interested just because we're on the topic, not at all for myself as I have no interest in being a tattooer. I would choose option C - use all $15,000 to get awesome tattoos!

I also think it would be likely that the shops most willing to take cash for apprentices are the ones prospective apprentices should be most wary of (with exceptions I'm sure).

[ThaliaCamille]

I do have to say, I've always felt a bit uncomfortable about the fact that discussion of apprenticeships is considered "taboo" on this forum. I don't mean to say that we should have threads happening like "I wnt 2 aprnts, y no1 likez me?", nor that anyone is obliged to share knowledge or anything of the sort. I just feel it's a bit unfair that any time someone mentions a desire to apprentice, they get people jumping down their throat. I know it probably gets annoying for the tattooers here to constantly have people asking for an apprenticeship in real life, then to have to read about it online too. I think some of the more in-depth responses like many in this thread will serve better to lessen those incidences than some of the more harsh "keep out of my industry!"-type ones.

On a personal note, I made the same mistake when I first signed up here in 2011. Since then, I've undertaken 40+ hours of getting tattooed, and absorbed as much of the general awesome-ness that this forum can offer. I still want to tattoo, but I know that I've still got a ways to go. This forum has helped with that, and I hope @Kahlan wont get discouraged and will hang around.

Oh, and @Great Lakes Tattooing since you're the OP I don't want your point to be lost either. There are probably some dodgy operators who take advantage of keen apprentices when a paid counter-person/helper is probably what they need. It's a shame that there are bad attitudes on both ends: it gives a bad name to the genuine apprenticeship-seekers AND the genuine tattooers who want to take someone on.

[Graeme]

A question for the tattooers: I live around the corner from a street shop. This shop has been around a long time by Montreal's standards...when there were only three tattoo shops in town, this was one of them. It's a first come, first serve, pick something off the wall, take a number and wait your turn kind of place, walls completely covered in flash, and they keep pretty busy there. I was talking with one of the tattooers there when I was out walking my dog the other day and he was saying that even though the winters are always slow for them that it's rare that there's a day when they aren't each doing at least one tattoo. Then he was saying that there are a lot of shops around where the tattooers can go days or even weeks without doing a single tattoo. They'll be at the shop drawing but they aren't making any money. There simply doesn't seem to be enough people getting tattooed to sustain the number of tattoo artists in this city.

Stewart said that if Frith Street gave a chance to every person who walked in the door asking for an apprenticeship that London would have around 800 new tattooers right now. That is obviously not sustainable.

Seth Ciferri posted something on instagram a couple of months ago about somebody in his area offering a groupon deal for tattoos with the comment that new tattooers would have to take second jobs if they wanted to make a living.

So my question for tattooers is how is the saturation of tattooers affected you and your business? How has it changed over the course of your career?

[Great Lakes Tattooing]

I think the thing to remember is that everyone who is tattooing as a career got into it differently. There is very few tattooers I know that had a real apprenticeship. Most worked for free as shop help first. Learning to tattoo is a lifetime commitment and it takes years just to understand the basics. All the good tattoos posted on here are more than likely executed by people who are more than seasoned. Its easy to look at this industry from the outside and think it would be great to be in. You know, tattooers are on tv and at celeb gatherings, they look like they have lots of money and have spare time to be in bands. Shops are portrayed as super fun spots to hang out where you dont have to take life too serious. What could be better than doing "art" for a living and making money doing what you love?? I think a steady paycheck is better, health insurance is better, retirement...There are a huge amount of sacrifices that come with this demanding job. Its not all roses and especially not until you start to really get a handle on the craft and the drawing and coloring aspect. Just about the time you have something figured out, you get humbled right back down by something else or, maybe even that something you had figured. Now, tattooing is so mainstream, that a fair amount of people treat it with a lot less respect than they did say fifteen years ago. These are only getting worse with the amount of people now tattooing. With all that said, Support your Local Tattooer, give them lots of money in exchange for tattoos. Support the industry and the people doing the thing everyday and maybe someday, someone will invite you to clean the nicotine stains off their bathroom walls:)

[Deb Yarian]

A question for the tattooers: I live around the corner from a street shop. This shop has been around a long time by Montreal's standards...when there were only three tattoo shops in town, this was one of them. It's a first come, first serve, pick something off the wall, take a number and wait your turn kind of place, walls completely covered in flash, and they keep pretty busy there. I was talking with one of the tattooers there when I was out walking my dog the other day and he was saying that even though the winters are always slow for them that it's rare that there's a day when they aren't each doing at least one tattoo. Then he was saying that there are a lot of shops around where the tattooers can go days or even weeks without doing a single tattoo. They'll be at the shop drawing but they aren't making any money. There simply doesn't seem to be enough people getting tattooed to sustain the number of tattoo artists in this city.

Stewart said that if Frith Street gave a chance to every person who walked in the door asking for an apprenticeship that London would have around 800 new tattooers right now. That is obviously not sustainable.

Seth Ciferri posted something on instagram a couple of months ago about somebody in his area offering a groupon deal for tattoos with the comment that new tattooers would have to take second jobs if they wanted to make a living.

So my question for tattooers is how is the saturation of tattooers affected you and your business? How has it changed over the course of your career?

In the 1980s, I, along with most of my friends,who tattooed- made an above average living. Today I make an average living.

Granted, I still get paid well, considering that I love what I do-- just don't make more than the average ( middle income American wage earner)

[Jennifer Stell]

I'm an apprentice...

I started to learn from Richard in 2002, then we all got a long so much I bought his partner Stace out of his partnership, which was Skin & Bones, a completely different business in the same building... As a business minded person I had to set down the apprenticeship, and focus on the piercing business, but knew I would get to be around and maybe get to have time enough to pick up a few things... It never happened, we maintained a partner relationship from then on...

In 2009, we were reunited somewhat... after about 6 months, I was his apprentice again, and still am...

What I have gathered from my 13 plus years in the body art profession is this, Tattooers or some of them, are a lot like teenage couples that don't think about the big picture, they get all hot and heavy and forget to take that pill or wear a condom, and oops a baby is born, and they themselves are still children... Babies having Babies is not an ideal situation in population or profession control.... Especially if you care about people and people getting good work.

And Richard has always ALWAYS said... Taking an apprentice is like getting married and someone taking your last name as theirs.... And there is no divorce, that's forever. Hence even too risky for him to teach or just trust even a friend to tattoo... They are bound to you for the rest of their career, and you want to teach good tattooing, and it's hard to teach something that we should constantly be learning about... especially if you love it.

[Brock Varty]

I'm an apprentice...

I started to learn from Richard in 2002, then we all got a long so much I bought his partner Stace out of his partnership, which was Skin & Bones, a completely different business in the same building... As a business minded person I had to set down the apprenticeship, and focus on the piercing business, but knew I would get to be around and maybe get to have time enough to pick up a few things... It never happened, we maintained a partner relationship from then on...

In 2009, we were reunited somewhat... after about 6 months, I was his apprentice again, and still am...

What I have gathered from my 13 plus years in the body art profession is this, Tattooers or some of them, are a lot like teenage couples that don't think about the big picture, they get all hot and heavy and forget to take that pill or wear a condom, and oops a baby is born, and they themselves are still children... Babies having Babies is not an ideal situation in population or profession control.... Especially if you care about people and people getting good work.

And Richard has always ALWAYS said... Taking an apprentice is like getting married and someone taking your last name as theirs.... And there is no divorce, that's forever. Hence even too risky for him to teach or just trust even a friend to tattoo... They are bound to you for the rest of their career, and you want to teach good tattooing, and it's hard to teach something that we should constantly be learning about... especially if you love it.

Well said Jennifer. Very good post.

[CultExciter]

@Jennifer Stell I felt this today when I was with my mentor. Just watching. It's true. I'm a product of him, and goddamn me if I let him down.

[insaniity]

As an apprentice myself, in Australia.. My training goes unpaid, But My mentor is fair I attempt custom designs if i manage to get what the customer or my mentor agree upon i recieve the drawup fee, I also recieve bonuses for being useful and improving if my mentor notices. It is hard to work unpaid but it shows commitment and i work my butt off to make sure the draw-ups i do are to the best of my current ability ( I'm improving :p), Majority of apprentices quit or get to pushy about tattooing to have an income, I'm patient and enjoying every part of the expierence and cannot wait to have the skills to apply to skin!

[YOMONEY]

i heard a great qoute the day about how most people hate their job and need to find happiness outside of it. and how making money off of what you love is a pretty new american ideology that a lot of us were fed, and in reality, very few of us get to do.

tattooing will live on and so will yoshi and chris crinkle is dead (rip). .

[else]

i heard a great qoute the day about how most people hate their job and need to find happiness outside of it. and how making money off of what you love is a pretty new american ideology that a lot of us were fed, and in reality, very few of us get to do..

Ahhhh, so lucky to have the job I have. Only rarely do I wake up not excited to go to work. (Not a tattooer, a speech therapist). :)

[Chelsea Shoneck]

Well,I've already voiced my opinion on this subject- but.... One thing nobody has mentioned is that there are still shops out there willing to take on an apprentice- for payment.

In the 70s I knew of a few people that were charging thousands of dollars for the opportunity to learn and work at an established shop. ( Set up equipment usually went w the deal.)Today it would not be unrealistic to be asked to pay tens of thousands of dollars. Think of the money you would pay to attend a trade school or university.

If a person is serious and committed, a financial obligation along with an agreed upon length of time/work commitment- isn't unreasonable.

So find a shop that you love, get tattooed there and ask if they would be willing to take you on as an apprentice for 2-3 years, if you would be willing to pay them ( what ever amt) you agree upon, $10-$15,000 a year, let's say.

Unless you just want them to give it to you, which seems to be what everybody wants.

This isn't unreasonable, but in reality the people who take on apprentices for a fee tend to spend that fee money on drugs or whatever and do absolutely nothing with the apprentice. Seems to be the trend with everybody I've met who have paid for an apprenticeship. I do know of a couple of cases though where the fee was actually used to buy quality equipment that the apprentice got to have when they had reached that stage (or the end of the apprenticeship, in some cases). I think that's pretty cool, and absolutely a great way to handle things.

Personally, I feel there is a comparison to be made between apprentices and children... and that would be that too many of the wrong people are having them (and usually a LOT of them), and many of the people who SHOULD have them and would teach them well either don't want to have any part of it or only have one.

This next part I probably shouldn't post but oh well. If certain people see it, so be it. I have had two full apprenticeships. The first one was three years long, and I didn't start tattooing until halfway through it. Due to issues under nobody's control (and completely unrelated to me or my apprenticeship), the studio was having difficulties and ended up getting little experience. After I'd been apprenticing three years, my husband and I were broke and needed to move for his job, so we did. I spent a year painting and doing my best to build up an even better artwork portfolio (I never once tattooed outside of a studio, as I knew it wasn't right). When I felt my portfolio was good enough (though really nothing is ever good enough), I searched out a new apprenticeship. I found one, and in hindsight I really have no idea why I was hired. My boss (mentor is an improper term here) had pretty much zero interest in teaching me anything at all. In fact, he seemed to have zero interest in his own progression and in tattooing in general, which is truly a shame. When my apprenticeship ended, my boss had zero interest in me getting clients, and in fact made efforts to try to keep me from getting any. I work hard and I have learned a lot basically on my own with little guidance, but have been very fortunate to have made some great friends in tattooing over the years who have been very helpful to me. I've had a pretty damn miserable experience trying to do things the right way over the past 6 years, and only in the past year have I really been doing any tattooing (and even then it's been quite limited). It's still worth it. I would still advise anyone to go the route of an apprenticeship, and work hard, and hope to hell you picked the right mentor. But sometimes, having miserable experiences teaches you how much you care about something, and how much you want it. Bad experiences can teach you a lot more than good ones, and will help you appreciate the good experiences you will eventually have.

When I hear the entitled tone of "If you don't want me tattooing in my home then teach me" (I did read the whole thread btw, and yes I know @Kahlan has had enough lectures and I'm not going to add to it) - it frustrates me a great deal. If I had decided to just start on my own after the first apprenticeship, I probably could've made a lot more money and been learning a hell of a lot faster. But it never would have felt "right" to me, because I didn't feel I had enough experience (even if maybe I did). It would've been the impatient childish mentality of instant gratification. Maybe I'm wrong, but to me tattooing is a truly wonderful thing, and wonderful things should be difficult and even painful to obtain. But maybe I'm just mean and bitter and have too much of a "well I suffered so everyone should suffer" attitude.

Edit - wanted to add that I am forever grateful to my first mentor for giving me my first foot in the door. I have a great deal of respect for him.

This post is so going to get me in trouble.

[captaincabinet]

I started an apprenticeship 3 or 4 months ago. I am in the shop 3 days and work 3 days plus a few hours on the days I am in the shop.

I have been offered the desk job at the shop for a small wage to allow me to be in the shop more and hopefully learn faster. I feel very lucky to have been offered this and am working my notice now to allow me to take up the position full time.

Things seem to be slightly different in the UK, it is rare that you would pay for a good apprenticeship, there is a shop fairly local that have 3 apprentices that have all paid £2,000.00 and are just sat around the shop as the shop just isn’t busy, as someone mentioned earlier it seems that the shops that charge over here are the ones that need the cash whereas if a shop thinks you have the potential to bring in clients they are more likely to actually try to pass on some knowledge.

Back to the original question;

I agree that there are too many tattooers, but certainly in the UK the majority aren’t great.

I think in an ideal world good tattooers who are willing to teach things the right way and of course who actually want to apprentice someone do so as that is the only way that the right way will continue, I know that’s just common sense.

I also think that people who are in it for the wrong reasons ought to stop taking advantage of people to make some quick ££.

And finally I think people should stop looking to be offered an apprenticeship over the internet (obviously not aimed at anyone here). Some of the other forums I use every other post is just a request for someone to get in touch and offer to teach them.

[bongsau]

I am not a tattooer, tattoo apprentice or have any desire to be...i just like getting tattoos on the regular.

Apprenticeship is mentorship.

Learn the value of respect, dedication and loyalty to your master and craft.

In this day and age a lot of folks have this self-entitlement, instant gratification thing going on. That's the problem. They want something and they expect to get it right away. You don't receive something because you WANT it...you have to EARN it. Why would someone who put the time and experience into their livelihood give it away for nothing? Reminds me of the Sifu-student relationships you see in the old kung fu movies.

Do we need apprentices? What we need is more proper Master-Apprentice mentor relationships. Good mentorship to pass down the tradition and experiences and apprentices that value the read-between-the-line lessons and experience and reciprocate with loyalty, respect and devotion.

I think the other problem is that there are a lot of skilled people out there, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are skilled teachers. Probably could use more Mr. Myagi and less Cobra Kai types in the tattoo world haha.

To relate back to tattoo...spend more time in the shop. I'm not advocating becoming an annoying cling-on or fanboy, but just go get tattooed goddammit! Prove that you will be a good student, a good investment of time for the teacher.

LISTEN ASK WATCH and you will be successful in whatever you do. And be aware of any opportunity that comes your way...take it...don't let it pass you by.

[CultExciter]

This post is so going to get me in trouble.

I doubt that, because you make good tattoos. :)

[reverend1]

I have to say the apprentice thing is really interesting and confusing to me at the same time. From what I read here I gather a apprenticeship is unpaid. I am also surprised to see some people pay to be an apprentice. How does an apprentice make a living while they apprentice? Assuming most potential apprentices are young how do they pay for an apprenticeship, work for free and take care of their obligations?

This all seems very counter-intuitive to me.

[bongsau]

Another observation here...when I got my first tattoo it was an experience filled with mystery. Fast forward 10 years and it is easy to see the tattoo process from start to finish because of accessibility of the internet and other platforms like Instagram. This is a good thing for tattooers and collectors however it has also created a monster. It has generated more interest for tattooing as a viable career path (perhaps maybe to satisfy a youthful lifestyle desire) for the younger generation. What ever happened to young folks seeking out apprenticeships in medicine, economics, engineering, skilled trades...not as cool as being a tattoo apprentice I guess!

[David Flores]

I have written a bunch of long winded responses to this thread but decided against posting them each time. I guess in regards to what Seth said about Portland, the monster created in Portland came about mostly because they made it illegal to apprentice someone, instead they required people to open state sanctioned schools. There is a million things I could bitch and moan about, but what it mainly comes down to is that most of these graduates go through school and get licensed and have no report with any established tattooers in town and gives no reason for tattooers to hire them. So what you see is a bunch of these new tattooers opening shops together and creates even more tension and bitterness from the old guard, who rightly so aren't interested in chopping up the pie any smaller.

I think if it was established respectable tattooers that got to choose who learned to tattoo, instead of just anyone who can afford tuition, they would weed out some of the douchebags and wannabes, they would be more accepting of young tattooers that make it through an apprenticeship, and likewise young tattooers would have to have respect for the process and the craft in order to get an apprenticeship. But as they say dam has been busted open, no way to get water back in at this point.

[Graeme]

@David Flores Thank you for providing context there.

[VCarter]

What ever happened to young folks seeking out apprenticeships in medicine, economics, engineering, skilled trades...not as cool as being a tattoo apprentice I guess!

Trust me, there are still plenty of people pursuing medicine as a career. Where I am studying there is an average of 800-900 applicants every year and only 100 spots available.

[KYboy]

If a good tattooer does teach you, I hate you because I never got that chance and I did a whole bunch of shitty tattoos while I was 'learning'.

That's funny shit! but if you don't mind me asking purely out of curiosity, is having an apprentice something you would do in the future? You obviously didn't have one and are a bad ass tattooer, but would you give someone a chance even though you weren't given one?

[ThaliaCamille]

I have to say the apprentice thing is really interesting and confusing to me at the same time. From what I read here I gather a apprenticeship is unpaid. I am also surprised to see some people pay to be an apprentice. How does an apprentice make a living while they apprentice? Assuming most potential apprentices are young how do they pay for an apprenticeship, work for free and take care of their obligations?

This all seems very counter-intuitive to me.

As far as I've been told (at least where I am, but probably in most places around the world), apprentices for the most part start making money when they start doing tattoos. It makes sense, in a way, since if you aren't tattooing you aren't bringing money in. There are other jobs where, during your training/study, you don't get paid. The first ones that come to mind are my friends studying teaching, nursing and pharmacy: they have to do "placements" for several weeks at a time during their course which are unpaid. It's just an unfortunate part of learning. That said, I think there should be some flexibility so that people like @captaincabinet who have other responsibilities can still have a second job to pay the bills.

[Tatanium2012]

I'm seeing a lot good and bad points here. Apprenticeships is not only a vital learning stage under a good tattooer, meaning where you learn good habits instead of taking on bad, which is why a lot of good artists don't take on people who have attempted to self teach, or "scratch" out of the house and develop bad habits that's hard to break. But also apprenticeships help weed out those who won't put in the heart and sacrifice that's required of quality tattooists. Also on that note it helps to be friends, or known by their mentor, instead of being a stranger because they would be more convinced that a person isnt going to waste their time and take what they teach only to go scratch with it.

So yes, as a young tattooer in the industry, apprenticeships, i feel, is vital to the continuation; progression, and keeping our history and respects alive in this grand industry of tattooing.

And on a final note, with all the attention good tattooers get with tv and such, more people will understand the difference between quality and crap, and those nasty quality shops out there will become less and less and increase in being considered a "pop-up" studios. while more notable artist will take their place who had done right through an apprenticeship, or had enough natural ability to rise on their own. Which can happen too, but is still a long road to take over good apprenticeships.

[Bunny Switchblade]

@Kahlan ......find a good shop....go inside and tell them you want to help with the shop in your free time (scrubbing the toilets, taking out the trash....sweeping the floors....etc.) AND tell them you'll do it for free!

Don't even mention you want to tattoo....and definitely that you are doing it at home....even on practice skin!!!

Put away your machines doll....it really is disrespectful to those who have earned the right to tattoo the proper way.

For over 20+ years i had been getting tattooed and never ever thought about picking up a machine to tattoo someone because of the respect I had for my friends who tattooed and just out of respect for the craft. One day i went into a shop while i was on a "tattoo road trip" and a guy told me he'd "trade tattoos" with me! I explained that i did not tattoo and why i was against this! He told me he had learned to tattoo from bob shaw on the pike in california after the vietnam war and had 40 years in the biz and he wanted me to tattoo him. I was really worried what some of my friends would think about me tattooing him but I figured he had earned the right to tell me it was okay to tattoo him....so i did!

You may think it is silly of me to have been scared of what my peers would think....but it's because I respect them.....and they respect me!

I didn't want to loose their respect because that is a very hard thing to gain back!

You can learn the way you are learning.....BUT....to truly have the respect of your peers you should learn the proper way!

And to have the respect of your peers in this craft.....is one of the highest honors there is!

I'm not busting your balls doll......just trying to give you a different perspective on why you should learn the right way!

I personally think you should be offered an apprenticeship....not ask for one!

And why do I suggest you should offer your services to a shop for free and work like a dog for them for free???

Because you will never learn the proper way to tattoo until you earn the trust and respect first....then you learn to tattoo!

It took me 20+ years to be offered an apprenticeship that was the right fit for me!

My answer to the original question in this thread is....yes....there do still need to be apprentices!

But not because you need free help or because the shop is slow and you need the 5-10k you can get for teaching someone!

It's because the craft needs quality people in it that are willing to earn it and one day pass it on!

An apprenticeship is not about learning to tattoo....it is about learning the business as well....at least it used to be!

- - - Updated - - -

i had the pleasure of sitting down with Zeke at the Philly Convention and the world is definitely a much more wonderful place with him in it!!!