Do we really need apprentices?

[asradin]

And that's the pompous attitude I'll never understand. Who says that the people that walk in the door haven't been struggling? Why assume?

But it's ok to you that just because you happen to know an artist they'll give you a shot?

I guess we're different.

I believe in teaching others and educating people into doing the right thing.

It just gets under my skin when professionals complain about people starting off in their basements, when it's almost a one in a million shot you'll get someone to teach you.

Anyway... I guess I'm just frustrated. I have no time to socialize and hang out in shops like I did when I was 14.

The *way* they want people to do things is a little unrealistic for me BECAUSE of the fact I'm working my ass off to get to where I wanna be!

It may be a pompous attitude but just because you've been working hard and doing things right doesn't mean you deserve to be taught. As well if you're a random person just coming in how is anyone supposed to know all these things about you? I believe in teaching people as well, but I don't think everything should be taught to everyone that asks. At the end of the day it's their world, which means they make the rules. You may not like them, they may frustrate the shit out of you but that's life.

[CultExciter]

How do you know that you want to commit your life to something when you've only got two tattoos?

New signature.

[Kahlan]

I know you've said you're looking for an apprenticeship, so firstly -- and this is not coming from a pompous holier-than-thou attitude -- tread lightly here. One of the reasons we've lost solid contributing tattooers to LST is for this very reason. Every few months someone joins up and says, "Hey, I want an apprenticeship, what's the problem?!" The forum is here to help and to share -- but not when it comes to technical how-tos and certainly not when it comes to the ins-and-outs of getting your foot in the door.

Second -- and this is coming from only a very slightly more life experience -- go get tattooed. I know you've got two tattoos.. But apprenticeship aside, if you want to learn about tattoos and that world, go. get. tatt.ooed. Make that your primary goal, put the apprenticeship out of your mind. How do you know that you want to commit your life to something when you've only got two tattoos? I bet things will be a little more clear after having spent more than a few hours in a tattoo shop.

Tried being as nice as possible here and there's a good chance it's as nice a response as you may get.. It's not that it's a cult or that people are assholes. Take a step back. Listen to what people are saying. Godspeed.

Yea I definitely am! I'm here to learn more. Sorry if my opinion was juvenile. Because it is just that.

Foot in the mouth moment for sure. :)

[gougetheeyes]

Because they don't know you. That's why.

I only just started my path to tattooing. I'm 30 years old. I've been getting tattooed for about 14 years now. I get tattooed often. I have developed friendships. And I'm so fortunate that my mentors see something in me. Not sure what it is yet, b/c even though this door has opened, I have to work very hard every step of the way.

Just keep getting tattooed. Keep working on the fundamentals of drawing. Keep discovering the artwork in this industry that gets you so stoked that you can't imagine doing anything else for the rest of your life. And hopefully something will open up down the road for you. You've got to put a lot in before you get back.

Good luck. And read what @Deb Yarian wrote. It's perfect.

I stand corrected; this was the nicest response! ..now, to go back in time and stop this thread from ever happening...

[Avery Taylor]

Tattoo Zeke Owen’s Column

ASK ZEKE WITH ZEKE OWEN

This one’s from the legendary tattoo artist dates back to May 1998.

Dear Zeke:

I want to pursue a career as a tattoo artist very seriously. I am currently an aspiring artist with no tattoo training. How do I go about it?

—Chris Sisler, Vacaville, CA

Dear Chris:

I’d like you to know, Chris, that my editor goes through all this mail out in California, picks out the things he wants and sends them to me. So I don’t have a lot of choice with really picking out my mail and the questions that I’d like to talk about. In other words, it’s just random and I don’t say, “I don’t want to answer this, I don’t want to answer that.” I say, “Oh there’s a juicy one,” and go on. I just have to take the ones that he sends.

First of all, I’d like to tell you a little story about something that happened to me up in Seattle, Washington, one time. And I might start this little story out with a caption that went, “So you want to be a tattoo artist?” By the way, did you see in local business magazine that tattooing is now the sixth largest growing business in the United States?! Well anyway, next to my shop—my shop was on Skid Road. Skid Road was named originally as the logging road way back in the 1800s when they used to skid the logs down the road to Peugeot Sound to put on the ships. Well, anyway, I was out on First Avenue in Seattle for a little while and it was really neat. One of the coolest things that I used to see up there was that the people from Alaska and all over up north used to come down and put their money in the bank and go to the poker rooms and live in the old, beat up, stinky, I mean really stinky hotels right down there on First near the Pike Place Market and Skid Road. And this one guy used to bring down, every year, a couple of typical sled dog looking dogs and they were probably three years old or right around there. And he’d stay in one of those Skid Road hotel rooms where they let you have anything—I mean anything. And in the morning, you’d see the dogs and this guy from the Arctic Circle or someplace, down on the sidewalk and the dogs would both have collars on and each collar would be attached to the other one, kind of like Siamese-twin collars. So, consequently, he’d have one dog on the port side and one dog on the starboard side and they’d both be leaning in about ten degrees against each other and that’s they way he’d walk. Man, it’d be funny right there at the beginning of winter. They’d be falling, a struggling and a pulling. But, after a while, after a few months, winter would start winding down and they’d go down the steps and outside on the sidewalk just in unison—just as happy as they could be, with their tongues hanging out. And they’d run down the street when he’d call them. It looked like he was training them for sled dog work, but I’d never seen that before. It was really strange to watch them.

Next door to my tattoo shop in Seattle was this old bar called the Forty Niner Tavern. And that’s exactly what it was. It was full of all them off the ships and miners. Honest to God they still have mines up there, of course they’d be there for the winter. And Seattle was kind of growing in those days, they were building all over the place, so we had a lot of steelworkers. And the tavern used to open up at six in the morning, and I know that because one of the opening bartenders used to be my girlfriend, Carol. And I’d be over at the arcade—it was open 24 hours a day with a pool hall, and the little guy who ran the grill—and I’d get her home fries and scrambled eggs and coffee and go over to the bar at six in the morning. And the place would be so smoky from cigarettes, it’d be the middle of winter and there was no movement of air in there, and the fire would be going and it was just thick with smoke. And the sun would make rays through the front door and the first few tables had a spotlight like one of the helicopters that flies over the lakefront when you’re out there barbecuing and partying.

Anyway, I was in there and it was packed with all the steelworkers in there partying and doing shooters before they went to work up 20, 30 stories. They’re as drunk as hell going off to hang steel up there. Somebody ought to write a book, if they haven’t already, about how these guys used to save each other’s lives from falling to their deaths by catching them on the floor underneath. Anyway, I was sitting there drinking my coffee and I’d just finished my scrambled eggs and home fries when all of the sudden the most horrible, putrefying smell came into the place. God it was horrible, you know? And I looked around. I once had tattooed a South Korean Sailor for two gallons of kimchee because he didn’t have any money—this was back in the 60s—and he brought me this two gallon can of kimchee and I tattooed him and he went back to the ship. I had zero communication with the guy. So I put the bucket of kimchee—after taking out about a quart size jar of it—and put it in the reefer box in the Forty Niner Tavern and we were looking in there. We thought that was it, because it can get pretty foul sometimes. But that wasn’t it. And I looked up toward the front of the bar, and in the middle of this blazing sunlight cutting through the cigarette smoke here sits this old wino. He has a Korean War era watchcap in a shade of green that was particular to that era with flaps hanging down over his ears. And he had two or three suits on underneath his big overcoat, because it was below zero degrees outside. And his hands were just—you couldn’t tell what they were because the guy was so grimy. He had on big, heavy army wool pants and I looked down and I could see steam coming off his right boot, this old army boot. And the guy’s face was leathered and beat up. And he had his hand wrapped around a double shot glass of some kind of wine or something. With the sunlight on him, he’s just sitting there with head down—he’s drunk about half of it. And the steam coming off his shoe was coming off a freshly laid turd. Somehow, before he had sat down, he had crapped in his pants and his turd about the size of a scoop of vanilla ice cream had slid down his pants and landed on the toe of his shoe. Just balanced there. And the stink was just ripe. It was horrible. And the funny part was I was only one who got nauseous—ready to get sick over it. The rest of the seamen that were in there—a couple of guys from the hotel, a couple of Indians, all these steelworkers, my girlfriend Carol behind the bar—when I pointed it out they said, “My God, there it is, it’s on his shoe!” They all turned and broke into a rolling laugh, but they weren’t sick. It didn’t bother them a bit. They thought it was funny as hell. Well, I didn’t think it was very damn funny. So I went over to the guy and I told him, I said, “You’re gonna have to get up and leave this place and take that fucking thing on your shoe with you! Get outa here!” Anyway, he drank his wine, got up and walked out the door real slow, with his head bent down. Poor guy, he looked like a refugee from WWII, with that shuffle, like those guys with the tattoos on their arms, given that number from Hitler. Out the door he went, and that stinking thing on the toe of his right boot.

But you know, that’s all part of life of being in a tattoo business. So I thought about that for many, many years. And there’s not a real point to all this that I’m telling you. But before you do anything—before you go about planning a big career move into the tattoo business—you really ought to find out more about what it’s all about. Where you want to go, what you really want to do with it. I mean, do you have any tattoos? In other words, before I give you directions to build a bomb you better know what the hell you want to do with the damn thing after you get it finished. Because most of the people who got into this business have a real kinship with their customers in that it really gets into their blood, so to speak, and you keep coming back for more. They stay in it. And I’ve seen real good tattooers just go nuts. Actually, one of Mike Malone’s that came in my shop, what was his name—from Germany—Freddy or something. Anyway, he went back to Germany and he was one of the very first ones on the crack of the wave of the tattoo scene and he took Germany by storm. It was 24 hours a day and it got to him so bad that he had a breakdown and went off to the hospital. And I haven’t heard anything from him since. Mike will know what I’m talking about.

But the point of it is I can tell you right now, don’t take it on your own to try and do this or experiment with anybody. And here I am telling you exactly what I did, and a lot of others did, experimenting on their own. I can’t say it’s a mistake but it’s just a better approach to go into a shop of maybe the guys who’ve been doing your tattoos. I’m sure you have a bunch, right? And talk to them. Bring your artwork in to show. I’ll tell you what, there’s been a phenomenon in this business that went right past me. I missed it. Only just now am I getting to find out about what’s going on. I call them entrepreneurs. They have a job with the transit system or maybe they’re in the bricklaying business in the daytime and they have ten or fifteen tattoos, so now they decide they’re going to have a tattoo shop. They go down to Ocean Boulevard in Jacksonville, Florida, and they rent a little store. They put an ad in the paper and they hire six or seven guys and they give them 35% of the gross to sit in there and tattoo. But if they don’t have the equipment, by God, they send off to somebody up north and buy all the machines and the designs and the tools to do the work with. And that’s one way to do it. And they just get together like a big Chinese cluster-fuck and sit there and mark each other up and everybody else that comes in the place.

But that’s one approach, I suppose. I think it’d be better off though if you did find somebody who had a reputation and they would sit you down and let you watch and talk. That’s really the way to get started. Hand to hand—kind of like the old-fashioned apprenticeships used to be at the shoe repair shop. After about a year, they eventually let you put a heel on somebody’s boot, you know?

And also, this is another kind of business where you want to get next to the best person you can. If you have some serious art abilities or training and everybody goes “oooh” and “aaah” when they see your painting, then evidently you’ve got the kind of ability that you need today to succeed in the business. Most of the old time guys are what we call mechanics—take a pattern, slap it on your arm and follow it along. There were some guys that could make it look like Rembrandt. You could tell, it was sort of a mechanical follow-the-dots sort of a deal. But today, when you’ve got so many great people, it just blows me away. I never knew Brian Everett was an oil painter or a portrait artist before he got into this. I just didn’t stop to think like that. The scope of the way I thought was pretty much limited to the tattoo community that I developed myself in. And it didn’t include people like that. And today Mike Malone says I’m the last guy to find out anything. I don’t know—he’s probably right. But today I’m beginning to find out these people in fine arts are getting into tattooing. I’m beginning to think, is there more money working in tattooing than there is working in the art department at some big magazine? And evidently some of them actually like tattooing. So then again, you have to think very carefully about what you say or what you do around this or any other business. But especially in tattooing, because most of the people who are in tattooing are pretty down to earth. There’s not a lot of fiction in tattooing like a lot of people would think. When a guy comes in and you work on him two or three hours and he gets up and runs out the door with your money, that’s pretty real. It’s not a real good example either but—also I don’t just sit there when I’m tattooing somebody. I’ve got something to say. I ask them what’s going on and you get to hear a lot of what’s really happening in the rest of the world. The kind of people I work on are everything from deep sea divers to CEOs of major corporations.

But again, you need to learn or find out more about what tattooing’s all about before you decide I’m an artist and I want to be a tattoo artist. Find out something about it first. Go to a tattoo convention. There you go. Hang out with all those drunks after the tattoo room is closed and they’re all in the bar slinging shit at each other, wrestling around in the parking lot like Bob Shaw and I used to do, drunk as hell in the grease. Things like that. Then that’ll give you more of an insight and whether you really want to be a tattoo artist or not.

See ya.

—Zeke.

[Delicious]

This thread from the start was kinda bound for a little controversy...

[Avery Taylor]

Coming from someone that would kill for an apprenticeship...it's been rough.

The excuses I get is that they're worried they won't *like* the person. (Which can be easily solved!)

I also apparently need to become 'buddies' with these people first... and even then they get a million idiots like me asking for an apprenticeship. Kinda tough finding artists that don't have their nose in the air.

My issue is if you seriously don't want me tattooing in my home then teach me!!!

But until then, I'll continue to practice on fake skin & grow my own way. Not many options...

One shop OWNER told me he's not able to teach another because he's only been tattooing for 4 years....yet you own a shop..... wow...

This industry feels like a cult sometimes...

"If you don't want me tattooing in my home then teach me." That sounds like blackmail. I try not to hurl insults on the internet, but after reading your posts on this subject I am a little annoyed. I don't have an opinion one way or the other about people getting apprenticeships. Every individual circumstance is different. I do however have a problem with people thinking they deserve something just because they want it. I am not sure why you think you are owed an apprenticeship, but until you get over that entitled attitude then I am certain you do not deserve one.

[Kahlan]

"If you don't want me tattooing in my home then teach me." That sounds like blackmail. I try not to hurl insults on the internet, but after reading your posts on this subject I am a little annoyed. I don't have an opinion one way or the other about people getting apprenticeships. Every individual circumstance is different. I do however have a problem with people thinking they deserve something just because they want it. I am not sure why you think you are owed an apprenticeship, but until you get over that entitled attitude then I am certain you do not deserve one.

It's not blackmail, I'm just venting. I don't think I *deserve* anything. Just really want it.

I apologize once again...

[Just Alex]

I'd just like to say something about taking on strangers as apprentices as well. By teaching someone your craft you are creating competition for yourself. In my cyber investigations into tattooland i have read of a couple of cases over here in the UK where an artist has apprenticed an aspiring tattooer, only to have them open up their own shop in the same town and take their client list with them.

A lot of tattooers seem to be fed up with apprentices with shite attitudes and if they are also running the risk of losing business a few years down the line I have absolutely no qualms with them being cranky about the idea of putting the effort into teaching people.

I have zero artistic talent whatsoever so tattooing isn't something I would ever want to do. However I am fascinated by the process and ask all manner of questions of the artists working on my scrawny ass self :) mostly they seem pretty happy to chat about it although I'm guessing they have the exact same conversations all week. That said I reckon I have learnt more about it from going through it than I have reading forums or magazines... Bit of a tangent but I fancied a ramble!

[hogg]

We really need more Zeke Owenses.

[chrisnoluck]

It's not blackmail, I'm just venting. I don't think I *deserve* anything. Just really want it.

I apologize once again...

If you "really" want it then you should atleast show some respect to the people who busted their ass going through a proper apprenticeship and do the same.. That means no tattooing out of your house when you have no idea what you are doing, fake skin or not. Not being rude, just honest.

[Kahlan]

If you "really" want it then you should atleast show some respect to the people who busted their ass going through a proper apprenticeship and do the same.. That means no tattooing out of your house when you have no idea what you are doing, fake skin or not. Not being rude, just honest.

Yup! I get it! lol

[Delicious]

To be completely honest, @Kahlan, you should have never mentioned wanting to apprentice on this site. Nothing personal against you, but come on, really? What did you expect? You seem like a nice girl, but this forum doesn't like people who come on here and say "I want to apprentice, blah blah blah". This isnt the place for that. It makes things really uncomfortable, quickly.

Especially when the people are nice like you. We don't want to drive you away, but at the same time, we want to pull you back to reality. If it is something you really want, search for it in real life, put in the work in real life, (not on fake skin! Or any skin, you know what I mean), and leave it off of this forum. if I had a nickel for every person who came to this site looking to become an apprentice, LST would be getting a hefty donation out of me!

[Kahlan]

To be completely honest, @Kahlan, you should have never mentioned wanting to apprentice on this site. Nothing personal against you, but come on, really? What did you expect? You seem like a nice girl, but this forum doesn't like people who come on here and say "I want to apprentice, blah blah blah". This isnt the place for that. It makes things really uncomfortable, quickly.

Especially when the people are nice like you. We don't want to drive you away, but at the same time, we want to pull you back to reality. If it is something you really want, search for it in real life, put in the work in real life, (not on fake skin! Or any skin, you know what I mean), and leave it off of this forum. if I had a nickel for every person who came to this site looking to become an apprentice, LST would be getting a hefty donation out of me!

That's why I took back what I said. I don't feel driven away since well, everything is a learning experience.

What can I tell you, I made a mistake...

- - - Updated - - -

To be completely honest, @Kahlan, you should have never mentioned wanting to apprentice on this site. Nothing personal against you, but come on, really? What did you expect? You seem like a nice girl, but this forum doesn't like people who come on here and say "I want to apprentice, blah blah blah". This isnt the place for that. It makes things really uncomfortable, quickly.

Especially when the people are nice like you. We don't want to drive you away, but at the same time, we want to pull you back to reality. If it is something you really want, search for it in real life, put in the work in real life, (not on fake skin! Or any skin, you know what I mean), and leave it off of this forum. if I had a nickel for every person who came to this site looking to become an apprentice, LST would be getting a hefty donation out of me!

That's why I took back what I said. I don't feel driven away since well, everything is a learning experience.

What can I tell you, I made a mistake...

[tatB]

@Kahlan unfortunately every new person that reads this thread is going to point out that your first few posts in this thread had an entitled vibe. but if they read your later posts they will see that you were just venting some frustrations and now have an improved perspective on the issue. but you should brace yourself for a few more people calling you out.

[Shaun1105]

At this point all I'm wondering is which is more offensive on this site: someone saying they should be allowed to apprentice or someone saying they don't like panther tattoos?

Good apprentices to good tattooers will always be a benefit to the industry, I would say.

[Dan S]

I think the girl been booted in the ass about enough. She said she gets it, so leave us all lighten up a tad.

[Ducky15568]

Who needs to apprentice when you have the internet and youtube has tutorials!

(jokes)

[Graeme]

Because I don't tattoo I don't really have a right to comment on this thread...BUT that Zeke Owen thing is so fucking rad.

[dari]

We really need more Zeke Owenses.

That letter was amazing.

- - - Updated - - -

This thread reminds me of when I occasionally eavesdrop on my kids from the next room. Sometimes if I don't get involved in their arguments, they figure out how to work it out themselves without me running in and yelling at everyone. I'm not saying that you're like children, I'm saying that I'm so proud of how LST has grown. You guys are awesome.

[Stewart Robson]

@Kahlan No lecture here, everyone else seems to have done a great job of that. Just some straight up info:

At the shop I work in (Which may or may not have a reputation on being harsh to 'wannabes') we get at least one person each week asking for an apprenticeship. In the summer months we get AT LEAST two per week, often more.

Aside from the fact than none of them can draw and most haven't been tattooed at our shop, - I'm not even sure if any of them know what kind of work we do (hint: almost everything) they certainly don't look through any of our folios while they are in the shop. - There is no way that our city can support 52 to 104 new tattooers each year. I've been there since 2007. That would be over 800 new tattooers.

But really, shitty tattooers should stop taking apprentices and helping them become shitty tattooers. If a good tattooer won't teach you, tough shit. If a good tattooer does teach you, I hate you because I never got that chance and I did a whole bunch of shitty tattoos while I was 'learning'.

[CaptCanada]

Was going to comment early on in the thread but wanted to know where it would go, my question is why are non-tattooers trying to respond to this tread?

[Ducky15568]

Was going to comment early on in the thread but wanted to know where it would go, my question is why are non-tattooers trying to respond to this tread?

The same reason why Dave Navarro is a judge on Ink Masters...

[Avery Taylor]

http://tattooroadtrip.com/blog/category/zeke-owen/

Here is a link to all of the letters that Zeke wrote for Skin and Ink. I thought I had posted this on the forum before, but maybe not.

[Deb Yarian]

Well,I've already voiced my opinion on this subject- but.... One thing nobody has mentioned is that there are still shops out there willing to take on an apprentice- for payment.

In the 70s I knew of a few people that were charging thousands of dollars for the opportunity to learn and work at an established shop. ( Set up equipment usually went w the deal.)Today it would not be unrealistic to be asked to pay tens of thousands of dollars. Think of the money you would pay to attend a trade school or university.

If a person is serious and committed, a financial obligation along with an agreed upon length of time/work commitment- isn't unreasonable.

So find a shop that you love, get tattooed there and ask if they would be willing to take you on as an apprentice for 2-3 years, if you would be willing to pay them ( what ever amt) you agree upon, $10-$15,000 a year, let's say.

Unless you just want them to give it to you, which seems to be what everybody wants.