Traditional Japanese V. 'American' Japanese Tattoos

[fourtotheflush]

Ok,

So following on another thread.

This thread is to discuss the differences of American Japanese Tattoos V. Traditional Japanese Tattoos.

I, for one, have no idea what the differences are, and will say I have done little research.

Following up on that who do you think are doing quality work in each category?

FTTF

[RoryQ]

Do we need another thread for all the people doing Japanese style who aren't American or Japanese? ;)

[CultExciter]

It's true. @RoryQ

"American" Japanese makes me think more of Cap. Coleman/Sailor Jerry...et al

[RoryQ]

I wasn't trying to be a smart-ass btw ... But when I think about Japanese style tattooing and the diversity of approaches - there are important guys dotted all around the globe.

And even in the same country or region we see a plethora of approaches. Calle in King Carlos is pretty different in his take on it than another Scandinavian like Henning J...

Then you've got guys like Pino Cafaro, an Italian based in Germany, The UK (everything from interpretive type guys to a Horiyoshi III disciple), amazing Australians and so on.

The U.S scene is obviously important but I guess I'm saying isn't it a global phenomenon now, moreso than just being concerned with just the U.S or Japan?

[fourtotheflush]

Ok,

Seems like semantics here:

How about

Traditional Japanese V. Non traditional Japanese.

[Dhopper]

Traditional has rules of what goes with what ie Koi with a certain flower. Kwan yin (sp) hands a certain way.

Non traditional is more artistic.

Ed Hardy non-traditional. Horiyoshi 2 traditional.

Sailor Jerry non. Horitoshi 1 traditional (I think).

- - - Updated - - -

Here is a traditional tattoo

[kylegrey]

Like @Dhopper said in the original thread to me it's a ratio or matter of degrees

By my eyes traditional Japanese is similar to traditional Americana in that the motifs are very bold and almost simplified , when I see Western influenced Japanese it looks more "busy " . When you look at the older style trad Japanese it is mainly single deity stuff you don't see dragon/tiger sleeves and most often sleeves are sakura and clouds , water with possibly goldfish or even just water or maybe a single Dragon . This may be to tie in with a full body suit as a whole concept , again I'm no expert just my thoughts .

For anyone wanting to see good examples of Traditional Japanese Tattooing there's a nifty series of books put out by the Japanese magazine Tattoo Burst called Nihon Dentou Shisei vol 1,2, and 3 easily identified by their red, black and blue individual colours . The books are in Japanese and beautifully photographed and are normally listed on e-Bay .

Here's some very clear examples of the type of thing I'm alluding to by Japanese Irezumi designer Osen from the 50's and 60's -

http://www.kspublishers.com/?page_id=1497

[Jepollock]

I found this thread insightful...

http://www.lastsparrowtattoo.com/forum/tattoo-designs-books-flash/3435-japanese-symbolism.html

[DJDeepFried]

Now I want that book, @kylegrey!

I thought this article was really interesting -- particularly the part where he calls the Horiyoshi III drawing "heavily influenced by Western tattooing, and did not have the authentic character that I was looking for." In Search of a Traditional Japanese Tattoo

Totally challenges what I've been thinking of as a "traditional Japanese tattoo."

As another example, I never really thought of Kiku as strictly traditional because his style seems so distinctive and different than a lot of recent Japanese work I've seen, but by that metric, maybe his stuff is more old-school traditional than most? KiKU - Tattoos

[Lance]

This is slightly off from the question but still relatable. This idea of "Japanese" is a funny one for me. I've always loved the traditional Japanese style growing up. Without getting into details I was less fond of tattoos I'd seen around the neighborhood. Both in terms of subject as well as how they looked. Traditional Japanese stuff always looked clean and cohesive, the neighborhood stuff were blotches. I didn't know spit about anything. That's straight out fact. I attributed bad tattoos as American. But even then I did develop a discernable eye for recognizing traditional Japanese on a subconscious level. When japanese influenced tattoos started becoming increasingly popular or more readily seen in the US circa the kanji craze, it never looked really "Japanese". I would flip through magazines see the images and would be able to blindly point to images saying,"American, European, American, Chinese, European, European, Japanese.". Then I'd look at the tattooer's names. 90% of the time I'd be spot on. There seemed a time when it was very discernable between the traditional Japanese style, American Japanese, and European Japanese. American stuff often seemed busy, sometimes cartoony, blue water almost definitely signaled American, but also solidly packed with colors. European stuff almost seemed delicate with smooth shading. Chinese was painterly(???). And Japanese stuff had balance between detail and legibility or if the detail took over it seemed that the point was to create texture or patterns on the wearer's skin. I don't know how else to describe it. This was all just by looking at them and not taking into account stories or any of that. Again this was during my ignorant phase, pre-tattooed but looking, when I still couldn't appreciate an Ed Hardy piece.

Skip to today years later, however and looking around it's much harder to pull up a magazine and call out traditional, American, or European. So many artist's works from outside Japan these days look more traditional than artists in Japan and same with the opposite. So many artists in japan are flipping tradition on its head and giving a fresh breath to things w/ western influences. I've come to figure it's all good. There's room for all. After hundreds of years of the same thing traditional Japanese can probably stand to take in a fresh breath.

I am still intrigued by people when I hear them say things are traditional only if done by hand or if they have a hori title and all that vice versa those who don't think it matters. An interesting debate to see viewpoints.

Just to be a stinker, lets just remember traditional Japanese is not even the same in Japan. What I mean is there are families. The rules of one family are not necessarily the rules of another. Then you have variations by regions too. It's all very interesting and overwhelming. Okay nuff said I'm just rambling. Btw, all the above, take it with a grain of salt. I'm no tattooer, historian or anthropologist on the matter. Just a random guy giving you his personal and I stress personal history, recollections and experiences. Rip into me if you will.

[kylegrey]

Now I want that book, @kylegrey!

Great stuff that Fudo back study is pure power , what grabs me is the backgrounds so much energy and depth and BLACK , Horihide also was a master at this as Jerry spoke of . Lehi does beautiful clouds in his tattoos as does Ichibay I think sometimes they get overlooked in the battle of fanciest finger waves .

[Brock Varty]

To me, traditional means that it is one of the families in Japan doing the tattoos or someone that was taught by one of them. Within that field there is still room for a ton of variation and expansion. I like to limit my view to that though. It seems to keep most, if not all, of the traditional and honor of the traditiopnal tattooing in place. I think it shows in the tattoos and even more so if it is done by hand.

Anyone not directly from one of the Japanese families I consider not traditional. I also think there is a large difference in approach, technique, imagery between people like Shige and Calle and Rubendall or Travino, etc. Sometimes, whether it is traditional or not doesn't really matter. If the person making the tattoo understands and works hard to incorporate everything from Japanese traditional that they can into the tattoo, then I will love it equally. But I think this means at one time they would have had to work closely with pure Japanes tattooers in the past.

[kylegrey]

@DJDeepFried I'm glad that first article attributed the Yakuza's health problems to alcohol and drug abuse , I recently finished the book "Tokyo Vice " and imagine my dismay reading the author imply this is in part due to their tattoos , he states " the traditional tattoos almost kill the sweat glands .The body can't get rid of the poisons easily "

[DJDeepFried]

@kylegrey, haven't read the book, just the screenplay for the TOKYO VICE movie that's in development (could be a good one!), and that detail really jumped out at me. That didn't seem right to me -- that a full body suit can block the sweat glands -- but couldn't get a definitive answer from the internet. Do you know for sure that's not the case? I think maybe it got mixed up with the Buddhist notion that you don't tattoo the armpit because that that's where the soul exits the body, but that could be more internet B.S. as well, I don't know.

[kylegrey]

I don't think Adelstein (the author ) is a member of the tattoo appreciation society , earlier in the book he refers to another Yakuza's Irezumi as " gaudy " or the like , perhaps it was poorly done but I get the impression he just don't like tatties . But @DJDeepFried this should answer your question-

Needles and Sins Tattoo Blog | Yakuza tattoos...and blocked sweat glands?

[CaptCanada]

I've talked with my tattooer about this before and from what he says about tattoos causing harm to the body is more likely cause of cross contamination. Like the US artists worked with the same needles, but something that never happened in the US is the after tattoo bath. When a group of yakuza were all finished for the day they would all take a shared bath together and have the tattoo apprentice wash them. If the tub is not large enough for all of them, they would go one by one after the tattoo is finished but, the water is still shared cause it's never changed...... America had bad procedures like no gloves, reusing ink, improper sterilization, and needles. Japan had all that to but I guess it all combined with the drinking and drugs set it over the top.

I think this thread is getting hijacked though.

[DJDeepFried]

Thanks @kylegrey & @CaptCanada. That all makes sense. I guess I was TLTG (too lazy to Google).

Back to the point. @Brock Varty. By that definition, I don't know of anyone beside Alex Reinke/Horikitsune (and maybe Matti Sedholm/Horimatsu) because he apprenticed with H3, but I'd like to know more. Having read this blog especially: Not Tiring of Defeat Leads to Victory it seems like there's a spiritual component to it as well -- plus some other restrictions, like only doing traditional Japanese work, working for only 2-3 hours at a time, and doing tebori (but not always).

I think of it a little bit like Asian fusion cuisine vs. going to an "authentic" sushi bar. One isn't necessarily better than the other, but a real connoisseur should be able to tell the difference. Which I guess means that the '90s style blue water/angry penis koi tattoos @Lance is talking about is the equivalent of a California roll with mayo. (OK, now I'm hungry.)

[kylegrey]

Again I don't totally agree with the Japanese tattoo families thingy, to my limited experience that ties you to one style of execution and has very rigid guidelines, but doesn't explain guys like Rico Daruma (Brazilian who plied his trade on the mean streets of N.Y. city ), Ichibay ( to my mind his work is the most faithful to the ukiyo-e masters and I feel more influenced by them than a tattoo style and subsequently Hiroshi Hirakawa ) amongst others .

DARUMA GOYA TATTOO, Japan

[Brock Varty]

Thanks @kylegrey & @CaptCanada. That all makes sense. I guess I was TLTG (too lazy to Google).

Back to the point. @Brock Varty. By that definition, I don't know of anyone beside Alex Reinke/Horikitsune (and maybe Matti Sedholm/Horimatsu) because he apprenticed with H3, but I'd like to know more. Having read this blog especially: Not Tiring of Defeat Leads to Victory it seems like there's a spiritual component to it as well -- plus some other restrictions, like only doing traditional Japanese work, working for only 2-3 hours at a time, and doing tebori (but not always).

I think of it a little bit like Asian fusion cuisine vs. going to an "authentic" sushi bar. One isn't necessarily better than the other, but a real connoisseur should be able to tell the difference. Which I guess means that the '90s style blue water/angry penis koi tattoos @Lance is talking about is the equivalent of a California roll with mayo. (OK, now I'm hungry.)

I think you touch on the real part of this conversation that needs to be in the foreground. There is not one style that is "better" than the other. However, to someone who is true to tradition and practices traditional Japanese tattooing...my bet is that they see neo-traditional as sort of a "cheapening" of their tradition. "old" vs "new" kinda...

Also, @DJDeepFried...there are some who would not even consider H3 traditional Japanese...although almost everyone would agree that H2 was...

@kylegrey I don't think of my defintion of "traditional" as the master definition. It is just the first set of rules I apply to tattooers and their work when I see it. I agree that there are many people doing things in a traditonal manner equally as well or better than some tattooers decending from one of the families. For my sake, I feel the need to limit "traditional" to tattooing done or learned in Japan. I definetely have more thoughts on this, but I just wanted to pop in and make a quick post...work calls.

[DJDeepFried]

This thread has already turned me on to some unfamiliar names. Always stoked for a chance to look at more great Japanese work. So thanks, guys!

I guess the point I was getting at is that there's a distinction between the pure aesthetics of what makes a traditional Japanese tattoo, and other, maybe unseen factors -- who so and so trained with, how they see themselves within the culture, etc.

What's interesting to me is how this debate doesn't seem to come up as much when we're talking about traditional American/European (as far as I know). Maybe it's because American culture isn't as strict or rigid as Japanese society is in some ways. Or because American culture is less steeped in tradition and all about the "next big thing." There's also maybe a spiritual/religious aspect of Japanese tattooing that doesn't apply with Western tattooing. There are plenty of artists out there whose work seems rooted in old flash, but no one seems to care or complain if you decide to draw a ship different from Sailor Jerry did or whatever (unless you f*ck up the mast/rigging which is a whole different thing). Of course I could be totally wrong. :)

[David Flores]

This thread has already turned me on to some unfamiliar names. Always stoked for a chance to look at more great Japanese work. So thanks, guys!

I guess the point I was getting at is that there's a distinction between the pure aesthetics of what makes a traditional Japanese tattoo, and other, maybe unseen factors -- who so and so trained with, how they see themselves within the culture, etc.

What's interesting to me is how this debate doesn't seem to come up as much when we're talking about traditional American/European (as far as I know). Maybe it's because American culture isn't as strict or rigid as Japanese society is in some ways. Or because American culture is less steeped in tradition and all about the "next big thing." There's also maybe a spiritual/religious aspect of Japanese tattooing that doesn't apply with Western tattooing. There are plenty of artists out there whose work seems rooted in old flash, but no one seems to care or complain if you decide to draw a ship different from Sailor Jerry did or whatever (unless you f*ck up the mast/rigging which is a whole different thing). Of course I could be totally wrong. :)

I think American Traditional is a whole nother can of worms, but yeah I would say their is a little more latitude to what can be considered an American traditional tattoo on the surface, but I think many people have just as strong ideas about what should or should not be in a traditional tattoo.

[Brock Varty]

Maybe what we should cosider traditional Japanese is this:

You want a tattoo that represent you, your life, your role, etc. You choose a tattooer that is well versed in Japanese folklore and tattooing. Together, you both decide on a story based woodblock prints that contains images that match you on a personal level. Traditional Japanese tattoo is an extension of ones self...maybe the reason some things are not traditional is because they are chosen for the imagery and not the story...

Just thinking out loud on this post...

[face]

I chose a combo, American eagle Jap wind bar background.

[thesandmanisme]

Irezumi

Irezumi (入れ墨, 入墨, 紋身, 刺花, 剳青, 黥 or 刺青) is a Japanese word that refers to the insertion of ink under the skin to leave a permanent, usually decorative mark; a form of tattooing.

The word can be written in several ways, each with slightly different connotations. The most common way of writing irezumi is with the Chinese characters 入れ墨 or 入墨, literally meaning to “insertink“. The characters 紋身 (also pronounced bunshin) suggest “decorating the body”. 剳青 is more esoteric, being written with the characters for “stay” or “remain” and “blue” or “green”, and probably refers to the appearance of the main shading ink under the skin. 黥 (meaning “tattooing”) is rarely used, and the characters 刺青 combine the meanings “pierce”, “stab”, or “prick”, and “blue” or “green”, referring to the traditional Japanese method of tattooing by hand.

History of Japanese tattoos

Tattooing for spiritual and decorative purposes in Japan is thought to extend back to at least the Jōmon or paleolithic period (approximately 10,000 BC). Some scholars have suggested that the distinctive cord-marked patterns observed on the faces and bodies of figures dated to that period represent tattoos, but this claim is by no means unanimous. There are similarities, however, between such markings and the tattoo traditions observed in other contemporaneous cultures.

In the following Yayoi period (c. 300 BC–300 AD) tattoo designs were observed and remarked upon by Chinese visitors. Such designs were thought to have spiritual significance as well as functioning as a status symbol.

Starting in the Kofun period (300–600 AD) tattoos began to assume negative connotations. Instead of being used for ritual or status purposes, tattooed marks began to be placed on criminals as a punishment (this was mirrored in ancient Rome, where slaves were known to have been tattooed with mottoes such as “I am a slave who has run away from his master”).

Japanese tattoos in the Edo period

Until the Edo period (1600–1868 AD) the role of tattoos in Japanese society fluctuated. Tattooed marks were still used as punishment, but minor fads for decorative tattoos—some featuring designs that would be completed only when lovers’ hands were joined—also came and went. It was in the Edo period, however, that Japanese decorative tattooing began to develop into the advanced art form it is known as today.

The impetus for the development of the art were the development of the art of woodblock printing and the release of the popular Chinese novel Suikoden, a tale of rebel courage and manly bravery illustrated with lavish woodblock prints showing men in heroic scenes, their bodies decorated with dragons and other mythical beasts, flowers, ferocious tigers and religious images. The novel was an immediate success, and demand for the type of tattoos seen in its illustrations was simultaneous.

Woodblock artists began tattooing.[citation needed] They used many of the same tools for imprinting designs in human flesh as they did to create their woodblock prints, including chisels, gouges and, most importantly, unique ink known as Nara ink, or Nara black, the ink that famously turns blue-green under the skin.

There is academic debate over who wore these elaborate tattoos. Some scholars say that it was the lower classes who wore—and flaunted—such tattoos. Others claim that wealthy merchants, barred by law from flaunting their wealth, wore expensive irezumi under their clothes. It is known for certain that irezumi became associated with firemen, dashing figures of bravery and roguish sex-appeal who wore them as a form of spiritual protection (and, no doubt, for their beauty as well).

Tattoos in modern Japan

At the beginning of the Meiji period the Japanese government, wanting to protect its image and make a good impression on the West, outlawed tattoos, and irezumi took on connotations of criminality. Nevertheless, fascinated foreigners went to Japan seeking the skills of tattoo artists, and traditional tattooing continued underground.

Tattooing was legalized by the occupation forces in 1948,[1] but has retained its image of criminality. For many years, traditional Japanese tattoos were associated with the yakuza, Japan’s notoriousmafia, and many businesses in Japan (such as public baths, fitness centers and hot springs) still ban customers with tattoos.

Tattooing and other forms of body decoration and body modification, as in much of the western world, are gaining in popularity in Japan. However, Japanese young people who choose to get tattooed are most often choosing “one point” designs—small designs that can be completed in one sitting—usually in the American or tribal styles. More recently, however sanskrit Siddham script tattoos are becoming more and more fashionable.

Traditional irezumi is still done by specialist tattooists, but it is painful, time-consuming and expensive: a typical traditional body suit (covering the arms, back, upper legs and chest, but leaving an untattooed space down the center of the body) can take one to five years of weekly visits to complete and cost in excess of US$30,000.

Edited April 8, 2013 by thesandmanisme
pasted un-wanted info

[irezumi]

All hail the mighty wiki