The Sue Jeiven Flash Book Theivery Fiasco

[The Hyena]

And another thing, Sully, this is such a bullshit statement:

"Sue does not keep a Facebook or EVER advertise her work online and keeps her success and work popularized only by word of mouth and not internet hype in the TRUE FASHION of REAL tattooing."

I would love to play up the "I don't participate in the internet" crap because WE ALL HATE IT TOO, but dude, doing hipster tattoos in Brooklyn you don't need to advertise on the net. Brooklyn/New York is it's own thing and really with the amount of people tattooing there, you'd expect the place to be dog eat dog, but it's not. TONS of people getting tattooed. Try doing that shit in middle of nowhere or some suburban town with five other shop. The language of the world nowadays, unfortunately is the internet. I hate it, but that's what people speak. In this economy, it makes sense to speak French in France.

[slayer9019]

I made posts on the facebook page because there were at least 5 of MY designs in there. None of the stuff I posted or really anything anyone else posted was actually "Shit talk". It was people just finding out about it, and being upset. I posted something about this on another forum, so instead of retyping it all, I'm going to go ahead and copy and paste it.

"In a case such as this where the person can't even make a simple clean design she is clearly tracing shit off the net and trying to make her name on it. The owl of mine that she used isn't flash. It was a tattoo that I did on one of this forum's members as a matter of fact. The other stuff of mine that was used was from one painting that I made for another tattooer that while in flash form, was a one shot painting. No prints. So she traced it and added it to her sheets. These are all in a book that she was selling in Philly. Making her name off designs that obviously aren't hers.

Tattooing DOES have a history of reinterpretation and appropriation, but there are lines. When I design flash for sale I don't care who tattoos it as long as it was bought from me and you aren't telling anyone that you drew it up. When it hangs in your shop or sits in your flash racks or book, my name is still on it. No problems at all. Go for it.

When you use it instead of drawing something because you're lazy and then tell someone it's yours that's bullshit. Also, when people are tracing tattoos right off the net and passing them off to the unaware masses as their "clever" designs it's bullshit.

And I completely understand, once you put it out there, it's liable to get lifted, but does that mean that opinions on such behavior can't be voiced and standards shouldn't be set against such behavior?

Absolutely not. People need to say shit to suckers. Tattooers seem to forget that yeah there.s a big tradition of lifting designs and whatnot, but there's also a tradition of protecting what's yours. Either by booby trapping it, making sure your name is ALWAYS attached to it, or by keeping it off radar. In this economy I'd love to be the off the radar guy. Just can't make it work, and if I'm spending the amount of time drawing, researching, reading, collection references, and building a stylistic vocabulary that is at least a little my own, then yes, I should be protective of it.

There's also the thing where tracing, and repainting flash by long gone, or otherwise retired old timers is different than repainting and then SELLING under your own name a bunch of shit being done by today's current people.

Shit's gonna happen, people are lazy, everyone LOVES to say there's nothing new under the sun, but it doesn't make it right or true. Chick is a thief. Ain't nothing on those sheets hers and a huge amount is from current people tattoos. Not even flash. She was at our booth in Philly this weekend. She didn't even buy my set after selling her book with my shit in it."

So to the person who was saying these things were never meant to be made public, and they were for personal use and to show clients, or to show clients, why even do that? Why trace my shit to show HER clients? So the people who don;t know ay better will see those designs as hers. That's not cool. Her illness aside, it's still a crummy thing to do to a lot of people.

I take issue with how You've come in here using "our favorite medium to talk shit" and try to talk to us like we're 12 year olds. Sorry she's in a bad way with cancer, but my sister is fucked to the nines with cancer but I still think she's the shittiest person I know. If this was truly about the merits of the sketchbook, then just stick to that. Don;t bring up things that don;t matter to the argument to just try to drum up some sort of viewpoint on her like she can't be called out on this shit.

I was AT Philly. She was in my booth. Talked to me. Still sold sheets with her name on in and mine, and other tattooers designs on them. None of those pages said anything like "designs by Wells, re-imagining by Jeiven." Which is kind of the thing you do when selling some shit that isn't yours. I didn't even know about this shit until a few days ago or I would have said something. And when get to Brooklyn next week I AM going to talk to her. Like an adult. So save the "you guys are all shit talkers" crap. Some of us are pissed.

Look. I'm no tattoo genius. I'm just a dude making tattoos and trying to make clients happy like everyone else, but I work my ass off to do so. My library is huge and very little of that is tattoo books. I spend hours upon hours drawing and re drawing. Again, I'm nothing special, but why can't she do that if her stuff is supposed to be so personal? Go to museums and collect old books. Not facebook tracings. The sketchbook you said was so AMAZING is 98 percent CURRENT tattooers drawings. Not old Jerry flash.

oh a lighter note...you're coming NYC?

[The Hyena]

Hahaha. Yeah man. I'm there about once a month for about a week each time. I guest at Three Kings. Be there from Feb 28th to March 5th.

[justcallmematt]

So when are you gonna come visit us in the frozen north? We can talk about Agent Coopers favorite pie.

[slayer9019]

Hahaha. Yeah man. I'm there about once a month for about a week each time. I guest at Three Kings. Be there from Feb 28th to March 5th.

Not to derail this thread any further but you should hit up the http://www.lastsparrowtattoo.com/forum/lst-get-togethers-tattoo-conventions/1503-nyc-meet-up.html thread. I know we are due for a meetup soon enough.

[Duffa]

@The Hyena - Check and Mate.

P.s come to Australia.

[MGblues]

ERT has some great tattooers working there. Personally, I hope everything works out for them. I hadn't seen anyone posting anything negative on the shop page itself, so I'm not sure why they didn't just take down the flash album in question.

I honestly wish no ill will to Sue, the ERT shop or anyone who works there, but really, how in the Hell could they not know what what she was up to and either not let her put it on their FB page, or deleted that shit before it possibly ruined their shop reputation and started an shitstorm on the internet.

[G.Uristti]

I don't know much about ERT except one of the guys there is my buddy and he's cool as hell and the other guy built a submarine of memory serves me correctly so he's pretty fonzzi. But I can't even begin to to comment on what the chick did. It's just flat out wrong, what the fuck was she thinking ?

[Perez]

"Her woodcut style" is something she took directly from Duke Riley and has only been doing for about a year or two tops. And look man, I fucking hate cancer and wouldn't wish it on anyone, but just because someone is sick doesn't mean they can't still be an asshole.

[MGblues]

And another thing, Sully, this is such a bullshit statement:

"Sue does not keep a Facebook or EVER advertise her work online and keeps her success and work popularized only by word of mouth and not internet hype in the TRUE FASHION of REAL tattooing."

I would love to play up the "I don't participate in the internet" crap because WE ALL HATE IT TOO, but dude, doing hipster tattoos in Brooklyn you don't need to advertise on the net. Brooklyn/New York is it's own thing and really with the amount of people tattooing there, you'd expect the place to be dog eat dog, but it's not. TONS of people getting tattooed. Try doing that shit in middle of nowhere or some suburban town with five other shop. The language of the world nowadays, unfortunately is the internet. I hate it, but that's what people speak. In this economy, it makes sense to speak French in France.

I live in the Middle of Nowheresville, Tennessee, U.S.A...It's like being in no man's land. There's at least 10 tattoo shops in a 25 mile radius. These shops FB every fucking tattoo they do, have awesome websites, commercials on every radio station...yada, yada, yada. Most of the shit you could get in these shops looks like it was done in some dudes kitchen in trade for a 12 pack of PBR. (No offense to PBR)

I guess I know now why the tattoo shop I've been going to for the past 2 years almost never posts on FB and doesn't have a website, but they still manage to have a bigger and more loyal clientele than any of the others.

Maybe reputation and word of mouth do still count for something even in the internet age.

[The Hyena]

Oh they definitely count for something, but so does the internet.

[Ursula]

Awww you got caught doing something shady, better pull our the cancer card!!

@The Hyena Ron, you are a great guy and a great tattooer, you said all that was needed to be said, and you said it well.

Like it has been said many times here and elsewhere, in the end, if you are the truly talented one, no one ripping you off will ever be as good and they will never be able to take away the true clients who can recognize quality tattooing.

Unfortunately this type of thing is never going to stop happening and I commend any artist who stand up for themselves when they have been ripped off.

Like I insinuated with my first remark of this post, and like others have said here, having cancer or any other illness doesn't mean you aren't an asshole and a thief.

And to the 'friend' of Sue's sticking up for her, if Sue is such a commendable person why doesn't she come here herself and change our minds about what she did? Oh wait, it's cause she was wrong and nothing will change that.

[Ursula]

also i bet you if Sue was a Jack instead, he'd have gotten the shit beat outta him at the convention for even showing up with that shit in his book. I've seen fights at conventions over less.

[JAllen]

i don't care what this chic did/does mostly for all the negativity it generates. it's like that all over the intervebs, if this had been a thread about something positive or cool it might've taken 6months-year to generate 4 pages worth of posts instead of only 4 days. it was one of the biggest reasons i deleted my facebook page. all the anger, rage, distain, and righteousness in the world won't stop lame or crappy stuff from happening. but a deliberate intent to promote all that is good will help to direct more people's focus towards all the things that might benefit or enlighten their lives. i've always wondered why it take so much more effort to create a "mob mentality" towards things that are good. when it's something shitty, there is a storm of attention. ftw

[kylegrey]

Agreed ,but sometimes in this age of neutrality its also cool for members to get medi-evil and vent their frustrations .Shit doesn't affect me but when our homies are involved we all get our backs up.

[Ursula]

Someone claiming to be Sue created an Etsy profile just to send me a message this morning. It was again going on about the cancer and how hard she's had it and blah blah blah. I replied and told her, don't apologize to me, I'm not a tattooer you ripped off, go talk to them. Re-itterated that I thought it was wrong and suggested if she wants to make a public statement to us (us meaning the LST members who posted in this thread) to do it here and not through my online store.

@JAllen is right though, we should all (myself included) maybe focus our mob energy and influence, 'cause it appears we as an online tatto group have one, towards some of the positive things on this site like the amazing interviews and articles Scott and others have posted for us to enjoy.

[Kev]

I definitely didn't have the intention of creating any negativity or drama by posting this here. I'm aware that a good number of tattooers are not big Facebook or instagram and may not have been aware of this situation through there. The way I see it, something positive did come from this- a lot of people who care strongly about tattooing pulled together as a community (rather than a 'mob') and supported each other.

[Ursula]

@Kev i don't think anyone is blaming you homie...

[embers]

i think it's fucked up she hasn't owned up to it, or even apologized publicly about this debacle.

cancer or no, that is a separate issue and has nothing to due with artistic integrity.

[hogg]

@JAllen is right though, we should all (myself included) maybe focus our mob energy and influence, 'cause it appears we as an online tatto group have one, towards some of the positive things on this site like the amazing interviews and articles Scott and others have posted for us to enjoy.

That was very big of you, Ursula. Thanks for posting it.

[gougetheeyes]

East River Tattoo? You mean, Cherry Bomb Tattoo?

[JAllen]

@Kev i don't think anyone is blaming you homie...

yeah, totally not trying to imply that was your motive @Kev. more so just an observation of how things on the internet can move quickly (and frequently) in a negative direction and usually towards something that can't or won't change. i think the ink masters thread is what really got me to thinking about things. i mean i remember when there was a huge "movement" to stop the tattoo school show and then a internet high five session occurred amonst all these groups of people because they believed that they had stopped the show...when in reality it still aired on tv. my impression was that everyone bound together to stop something they felt was going to damage the trade/craft/etc. oddly enough, i know many people who were so against it being on tv and yet they still watched it. then when this tattoo competition comes on, which is just a manipulation like any tv show. i don't see how this doesn't do as much damage as the tattoo school show. it's not a reality and as i've noticed in the ink masters thread there's all sorts of negativity that comes from how this show is intentially produced. these tv folks don't give a shit about any of us, but yet it's been allowed to infiltrate and manipulate us just like the rest of the mindless masses. they want us to watch, even if out of guility pleasure. they want us to talk about it because when we do, more people will pay attention and thus more seasons and more money in their pockets. that theard in here has almost as many posts as any of the ones that are really awesome and people show off what they got done and by who and how great the experience was...so i guess all i'm saying is i hope more people will try to focus on/continuing to promoting all the good. because in the end, if someone is doing something to actually wrong or damaging and doesn't really care about doing it. then there is no real stopping that person. but when we all plant the seeds of good then everything that comes from it will be a benefit and maybe/hopefully one day it will start to obscure the negativity and the dependence on mass media brainwashing us into a bummerland.

[MGblues]

I definitely didn't have the intention of creating any negativity or drama by posting this here. I'm aware that a good number of tattooers are not big Facebook or instagram and may not have been aware of this situation through there. The way I see it, something positive did come from this- a lot of people who care strongly about tattooing pulled together as a community (rather than a 'mob') and supported each other.

I didn't see it as a negative thing. There were some harsh comments for sure (me included, I apologize), but some good came from it also.

As a group of dedicated fans, clients, collectors of good work, and the artists who pour their hearts into giving us the art we want to wear till we're worm food, LST to me represents a tiny portion of an already small sub-culture. One that respects the history, tradition, and ethics of the artform we love.

Someone who was doing something wrong got called out for it on a public platform, and as a result hopefully learned a harsh lesson in the error of their ways.

If no one had spoke out it would just been one more occurrence of a lack of ethics and originality being allowed to further dilute the little pool we swim in.

Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now.

[Bunny Switchblade]

I have definitely done some things in my life I probably shouldn't have....that being said.......I also have a 22 year old God-daughter at my house that is going through treatment for cancer....and playing that card pisses me off very much!!!

My God-daughter is having to fight the insurance company at every turn and is getting treatments that she may indeed be responsible for at $2500 a day!

She hasn't been out robbing banks.....prostituting herself....or copying other peoples art and allowing them to be sold to the public! (mistake or not....it happened)

I have seen the tattoo community come together so many times before to help fellow artists and I don't understand why if there is a problem this wasn't done this time as well!

I'm sorry, but I just don't have any sympathy for someone who does this no matter what the reasoning....it was wrong and she should own up to it and apologize to those artists she wronged and then STOP this kind of behavior!

Again....mistakes happen....BUT.....the people who's art was copied should talk to her about this directly and she should indeed apologize.....whether it was intentional or not.....it happened!

[Bunny Switchblade]

So when are you gonna come visit us in the frozen north? We can talk about Agent Coopers favorite pie.

@The Hyena has to come down to Baltimore to tattoo me before he goes to Alaska!!!

Zeke Owen slipped away and ended up in Alaska before I got tattooed by him....The Hyena is not doing the same thing....ha ha ha!

:)