Lifting Thread;training for the tattooed warrior.

[RoryQ]

@RoryQ, that sounds truly horrible. 5x10 is high volume for me.

Yeah, I feel pretty wrecked today but I'm not back at it till Monday now. I think it's the squats that really do the damage.

[hogg]

Yeah, I feel pretty wrecked today but I'm not back at it till Monday now. I think it's the squats that really do the damage.

They don't make weights light enough for me to front squat 10x10. Kudos to you.

[kylegrey]

I was using GVT on my leg day and although I'm back doing my more standard workout I'm able to hit both back and front squats with higher volume no problem - all up I'm doing 9 sets of squats per leg workout which is good .

I've been using 5/3/1 for my first compound movement with my deadlift being around the 500 lb mark , bench is around 315 and squats a little north of 405 . I've incorporated Klokov presses as my secondary shoulder movement and added snatch grip stiff leg deads for hamstrings . Here's an example of the Klokov press from the man himself Russian weightlifter Dmitry Klokov

[Cork]

Snatch grip deads are ROUGH. I had them in my routine for about a year and my upper back never got used to them.

I've been going strong in the gym still. It's been tough with consistency since healing my back piece sessions have been slow going. I followed the Cube for about 1.5 years, but I think I am tossing around the idea of going back to 531 but adding in a strongman event day once I collect enough gear, since I now have room for fun implements :)

[Scott R]

I just got back from DRs and I am having surgery on both hips. I am actually happy that after years of pain being diagnosed as lumbar I had hip arthograms done out of pocket last month and they revealed torn cartilage, degenerative cartilage , FAI and cam lesions on hip ball. 3 weeks on crutches then 3 months therapy then go back for left hip

[Brock Varty]

I just got back from DRs and I am having surgery on both hips. I am actually happy that after years of pain being diagnosed as lumbar I had hip arthograms done out of pocket last month and they revealed torn cartilage, degenerative cartilage , FAI and cam lesions on hip ball. 3 weeks on cruthes then 3 months therapy then go back for left hip

I hope all goes well man. Thats some serious procedures!

[Cork]

I just got back from DRs and I am having surgery on both hips. I am actually happy that after years of pain being diagnosed as lumbar I had hip arthograms done out of pocket last month and they revealed torn cartilage, degenerative cartilage , FAI and cam lesions on hip ball. 3 weeks on crutches then 3 months therapy then go back for left hip

Holy shit Scott, I hope you have a full recovery!

[Pleadco]

I just got back from DRs and I am having surgery on both hips. I am actually happy that after years of pain being diagnosed as lumbar I had hip arthograms done out of pocket last month and they revealed torn cartilage, degenerative cartilage , FAI and cam lesions on hip ball. 3 weeks on crutches then 3 months therapy then go back for left hip

Speedy recovery dude!

[Colored Guy]

I just got back from DRs and I am having surgery on both hips. I am actually happy that after years of pain being diagnosed as lumbar I had hip arthograms done out of pocket last month and they revealed torn cartilage, degenerative cartilage , FAI and cam lesions on hip ball. 3 weeks on crutches then 3 months therapy then go back for left hip

Oh injuries... I came back from a serious shoulder injury in early 2011. No surgery but a lengthy and painful PT.

Onto my car accident in late 2011 and the thoracic spine injury... I'm lifting and taking it easy but take days off when I need to. I have decent pain medication though, I'd be dead without it.

I've lost a little size but still have most of my strength.

Heal up fast, best wishes to a full recovery!

Rob

[kylegrey]

@Scott R I agree with you nothing's more frustrating than being injured and clutching at straws as to why . Now you have the correct diagnosis and are getting sorted ready to come back stronger .

[RoryQ]

After a few months now of GVT and then a pretty conventional bodybuilding split, I am running Dan John's Mass Made Simple Lite (MMS Lite).

It's a breakin week of 3 workouts and then 5 weeks of 3 workouts per week. They're full body workouts, with a focus on hypertrophy coming from load not just volume. Each workout has a little bias (more pressing, more pulling, more squatting etc). They all finish with farmer's walks.

So wish me luck...

[hogg]

So wish me luck...

You'll need it for the squat days. When you have to do 50 reps...ugh!

[RoryQ]

You'll need it for the squat days. When you have to do 50 reps...ugh!

Ah' date=' there is a 5 x 10 day on MMS Lite but it's not quite as brutal as the original MMS (with the complexes).

[url']http://danjohn.net/2012/01/mass-made-simple-lite/[/url]

[Gregor]

I know you guys are all mad lifters and all that , and this might be the wrong place to post this , but you guys seem to be the experts with all your mad jargon. I lost a lot of weight over the past year and with it a lot of strength. I was stronger when I was fatter funnily enough . How do you go about building strength up without bulking up too much ?

[Scott R]

I know you guys are all mad lifters and all that , and this might be the wrong place to post this , but you guys seem to be the experts with all your mad jargon. I lost a lot of weight over the past year and with it a lot of strength. I was stronger when I was fatter funnily enough . How do you go about building strength up without bulking up too much ?

that is a great question,

first you definitely lost muscle mass with your weight loss, which effected your strength. Neurologically you can only have so much adaptation through motor unit recruitment before your body relies on hypertrophy for adaptation. If your at a caloric deficiency your not anabolic and most likely catabolic in nature. You can get stronger without bulking per say, by lifting heavy(4-6 reps many have great gains using 1-3 reps but sounds like you shouldnt attempt that with your current knowledge of training) and eating a bit above your daily requirements. Compound multi joint movements are your friend. One of the other regulars in this thread can expound on this subject as your questioning gets more precise in concern to your current routine and diet. @kylegrey @hogg @RoryQ @Cork @Colored Guy

[RoryQ]

@Gregor @kylegrey @hogg @Cork @Colored Guy

Gregor, as Scott R says, when people lose a lot of weight unfortunately they are almost always also losing muscle mass along with it.

My view is that leaness is rarely a comfortable bedfellow with a goal of building strength (unless you are very genetically gifted). As Scott alludes to after a certain point in your training you have to be taking in a surplus of calories to support progress. Whether the goal is strength or hypertrophy, a lot of classic programmes like 5X5, Starting Strength, old bodybuilding splits etc. go hand in hand with an expectation that you will eat like a King for a while. Invariably, you're gaining muscle but inevitably some fat. Typically the intention in the long run would then be to try to cut some of the fat while maintaining as much of the muscle mass as possible.

I've seen a lot of fellow intermediate lifters seem to constantly swing between a kind of boom and bust. They do something like Starting Strength and eat like crazy, and their squat and press shoot up. They also get fat. Then they spend several months cutting, but botch it, and end up a lot leaner but also weaker. Then, the cycle begins again. I've done this myself a fair bit, despite efforts to the contrary.

All that said, I think there are two other points worth considering:-

1. If you're a novice lifter in terms of your strength standards and/or have a lot of weight to lose I think it is possible to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time... For a while. I think for most men they can ride both horses up to the point of achieving some basic benchmark strength standards (bodyweight bench, double bodyweight deadlift?) but, after that, if you want to get a lot stronger then you can't achieve that while simultaneously trying to get leaner and leaner.

2. On the possibility of building strength whilst not gaining mass, whether muscle or fat, I think it's possible to follow a programme which is based on strength as a skill, and which seems to relate heavily to the CNS and lifting. The work of Pavel Tsatsouline springs to mind. He has recommended near daily training in the past, with relatively heavy weights, pursuing the idea of strength as a quality that can be developed through practice, rather than just being a physical attribute you either have or don't. I've made decent progress in strength terms on a high frequency / moderate intensity / low volume programme a little like this (Dan John's '40 Day' programme). If you want to get stronger but want to actively avoid getting bigger in any sense then this is a route worth exploring. In the long run I'm sort of agnostic about how long you can continue to progress in strength terms without accepting that you are going to have to get bigger, however. A lot of the benchmarks which Pavel and co. use as demonstrators of notable strength being developed are often also highly skill related (the one legged pistol squat being a good example).

I'd be curious what @kylegrey has to say, seeing as pro bodybuilders seem amongst the best at getting really lean whilst keeping on lean muscle mass. Genetics, or just a matter of being really good at cutting when the time comes for it?

[Gregor]

@Scott R @RoryQ Thanks for he excellent responses. Looks like I need to start eating more !! I am that scared of putting the weight back on ! I have got a kettlebell and Pavel Tsatsouline's ETK DVD and I am going to work on that on the next few months. Hopefully that will start to make a difference.

[RoryQ]

@Gregor

I think as long as your diet is in hand you should be grand. I've never done ETK or any of Pavel's Kettlebell only programs, but he's a legit guy and if you do it properly I'm sure you'll get something out of it. Post up in this thread after a bit?

[Gregor]

Definitely will do !

[kylegrey]

@Gregor has to say, seeing as pro bodybuilders seem amongst the best at getting really lean whilst keeping on lean muscle mass. Genetics, or just a matter of being really good at cutting when the time comes for it?

Interesting stuff , when I started training the idea of "bulking up " was de rigueur and I tried this and gained a huge amount of weight , which in all honesty was an excuse to get fat and the pretence that as I was stronger it was for a purpose . It didn't really help my goals as I couldn't see what was going on underneath the generous layer of lard I was carrying and when it came time to diet I was shocked at how much weight I had to lose to even look like an athlete . After a time I noticed that the guys who made the most improvements and who's physiques changed the most were the guys who competed regularly, because after a contest is when a competitor makes his best gains as the metabolism is in a heightened state from weeks of strict dieting and once he resumes his normal routine his workouts go to another level . Another thing to ponder is that a lot of the more experienced Pro's actually grow into a show i.e. are at their heaviest and most muscular in the dieting period because they are eating a lot more than what they eat in the offseason and doing far more cardio so the two aren't mutually exclusive . At the moment I'm cycling mad so I ride my bike around 70-100 miles a week at a reasonable clip however I've gotten stronger in the gym so as long as you eat accordingly and focus on the big lifts cardio isn't detrimental to gaining strength . Also it's not a case of just eating more it's more tracking your macros as the old adage goes " you can't get fat if you don't eat fat " try consuming 3-4000 ultra clean calories it's very difficult and also expensive if the majority is derived from protein , bearing in mind that a pro bodybuilders weekly food bill in the US is in the $500 range .

[hogg]

It's also worth noting that the majority of--but not all--pro bodybuilders are consuming considerable quantities of "supplements" that allow them to get leaner than the average Joe. That said, there's lots of good advice being thrown around in the past few posts.

[Cork]

I agree with Kyle with respect to abusing the "bulk" stage and just using it as an opportunity to say "Hey, I do get to eat 3 desserts because I have a heavy deadlift session coming up."

If you can give yourself a critical eye, and I mean really critical, you'll be able to tell what adjustments you need to make in your diet. Taking progress pics and balancing that with the scale, you should be able to clearly see results in 4-6 weeks once you get a diet straight. And if not, figure out what needs to change, then monitor for another 4-6 weeks. It may seem like a lot of time, but you have to experiment. If you are diligent, if you monitor everything, you will figure out what works for you and you can use that knowledge the rest of your life. You'll know the general baseline foods and what you can drop if you know you want to cut a little, or just add a little more protein if you want to put on some more lean mass, etc.

[Colored Guy]

I agree with Kyle with respect to abusing the "bulk" stage and just using it as an opportunity to say "Hey, I do get to eat 3 desserts because I have a heavy deadlift session coming up."

If you can give yourself a critical eye, and I mean really critical, you'll be able to tell what adjustments you need to make in your diet. Taking progress pics and balancing that with the scale, you should be able to clearly see results in 4-6 weeks once you get a diet straight. And if not, figure out what needs to change, then monitor for another 4-6 weeks. It may seem like a lot of time, but you have to experiment. If you are diligent, if you monitor everything, you will figure out what works for you and you can use that knowledge the rest of your life. You'll know the general baseline foods and what you can drop if you know you want to cut a little, or just add a little more protein if you want to put on some more lean mass, etc.

There are clean and dirty bulks. Dirty bulks are fun since you can eat anything and everything. Clean, you have to have an idea of what your protein, fats and carbs are made up of.

My summer cut went assways in July. I was shooting for 225 lbs, got as far as 230 and shot back up to 238 with my beer consumption. I averaged 30-40 beers a week for most of the summer... it was hot. In the winters I'll run up to around 245 and have been as heavy as 260, but my lifts were great and I had a ton of strength. I'd do mainly 4 sets of 6 reps going as heavy as possible.

Rob

[Cork]

There are clean and dirty bulks. Dirty bulks are fun since you can eat anything and everything. Clean, you have to have an idea of what your protein, fats and carbs are made up of.

Right, but all I'm saying is that I feel that dirty bulking isn't as effective in the long run. I think that it takes a lot more work to get off all that fat than to just be patient and slowly clean bulk, and not worry about all that fat gain that you would get in a dirty bulk. You can only grow new muscle so fast anyhow.

[Colored Guy]

Right, but all I'm saying is that I feel that dirty bulking isn't as effective in the long run. I think that it takes a lot more work to get off all that fat than to just be patient and slowly clean bulk, and not worry about all that fat gain that you would get in a dirty bulk. You can only grow new muscle so fast anyhow.

Clean bulking, you just eat how many calories above maintenance. (Beer does NOT count).

Rob