Non-tattooers opening shops

[Dan S]

lets not get into a pissing contest. these quote reads as someone who thinks walk-in flash pickers and getting names are somehow less important and of a lower stature than someone who comes in as a regular to sit for a few hours on a sleeve. if you didnt mean it that way, fine, no big deal, move on. this back & forth shit is tiring.

I suppose if you want to read them that way, but what I wrote was that a tattooist can make it, but not really get over, i.e.; can't really break into the bux by doing $100 pieces of flash.

As to the second quote, it has nothing to do with importance, it has to do with finance. The 19 y.o. girl getting the z.o.a.s. is probably never going to come back, probably never going to get another tattoo. That is just reality, and doesn't imply any less importance to them as a person.

And if the back and forth shit is tiring, then don't deal in it. You called me out, I answered you, now you say drop it. Okay, fine. Walk it off.

[CultExciter]

I think it's time we all break out a ruler and see who's is bigger. Mine sounds REALLY BIG if you measure in centimeters!

[Tight-Lines]

Walk it off.

[catchaser]

I'd like to revive this thread with an honest question of "What do you think about this situation?"

A year into his apprenticeship the shop where my son was working went under because of allot of bad circumstances all happening at once. The owner and artist is interested in "just working" because he is burned out on the business side of things. I would have a firm commitment from him. I know another artist who would be interested as well. Although my son is on his way it would allow him to finish his apprenticeship under the artist he started with. For what it's worth from a "Non-Tattooer" these guys both do amazing work! Both have won awards and have been published in the trade magazines.

I'm interested in opening this shop to provide a place for these artists to work and to provide my son with the opportunity to continue his education. Hell, I'd be happy to just make my initial investment back but for the success of the shop I'd hope it would be profitable.

Should I entertain this or run like hell and hope they find some opportunity somewhere else?

[slayer9019]

I'd like to revive this thread with an honest question of "What do you think about this situation?"

A year into his apprenticeship the shop where my son was working went under because of allot of bad circumstances all happening at once. The owner and artist is interested in "just working" because he is burned out on the business side of things. I would have a firm commitment from him. I know another artist who would be interested as well. Although my son is on his way it would allow him to finish his apprenticeship under the artist he started with. For what it's worth from a "Non-Tattooer" these guys both do amazing work! Both have won awards and have been published in the trade magazines.

I'm interested in opening this shop to provide a place for these artists to work and to provide my son with the opportunity to continue his education. Hell, I'd be happy to just make my initial investment back but for the success of the shop I'd hope it would be profitable.

Should I entertain this or run like hell and hope they find some opportunity somewhere else?

My $0.02

I would avoid mixing money/business with family. It gets nasty quick. I have personal experience with this and know the issues that arise.

My family owned a very successful business. As the business grew issues arose very quickly. Who own's the company? Who gets a bigger cut? Is <xyz> person getting a more favorable treatment than me? The list goes on. It's hard to be in business with the family. It screwed up my family really quick towards the end and we still don't talk to a few family members since there was legal shit being thrown at each other even after we dissolved the company. The wives even got involved.

To this day my father still tells me "Never ever ever mix business with friends and family, unless you can happily walk away from them in a heartbeat" "Business is like war, and you don't want to being turning brother on brother."

While I do know business that have run successfully in a family, I also know the behind closed doors issues that come up. There will always be someone who gets favorited. (In your case probably you favoriting your sons opinion over the other guy). Since you will just be financial backer you will be in a tough spot. Let's say the business tanks, you might end up getting mad at your son for "not trying hard enough, etc". When your son and this guy are putting in all the man-hours what happens if they decide to open their own shop and leave? At that point your business is just a building your renting since you cannot tattoo.

I personally say it would be a bad idea, just because I've seen the massive shit-storm that can come from family/money. It's like water and oil. You don't think that emotions will rise now or you just want to make your money back but believe me ideas change over time.

[Dan S]

If this is something you want to do, make sure it is completely papered.

Everything Slayer says in the previous post is str8-up. I work with my familoy, and damn! Are they ever a pain in the ass. Right, guys?

Anyhow. Talk to a lawyer, but I would suggest no matter what, make sure everyone's duties and expectations are clearly spelled out in an operating agreement and job descriptions done upfront.

[CultExciter]

Smart dudes these fellas here.

[slayer9019]

If this is something you want to do, make sure it is completely papered.

Everything Slayer says in the previous post is str8-up. I work with my familoy, and damn! Are they ever a pain in the ass. Right, guys?

Anyhow. Talk to a lawyer, but I would suggest no matter what, make sure everyone's duties and expectations are clearly spelled out in an operating agreement and job descriptions done upfront.

Yea lawyers are a must. There is a ton of small stuff most people miss. I recently got involved in creating a startup with another guy I work with. Stuff came up like "what happens if one of you is incarcerated/dies?". Technically if you didn't spell out these situations if say your partner is jailed/dies their spouse can become your "new partner" and can tank the company. Shit I didn't even think about! Plus there is a literal fuck-ton of paperwork in starting a business and as @Dan S said write everything out in plain-ol-english. Otherwise it becomes a game of he-said-she-said. Shit came up in my family where my Uncle could no longer go to work due to "stupid decisions" but he was still a owner of the company and still received a paycheck, damn did that suck.

Also rembember lawyers and paperwork ain't cheap. Add that to the startup cost. Good lawyers (at least here in NYC area cost hundreds an hour). If I remember correctly my small company was about 10k-ish with a family discount to get going legally.

Oh yea also don't forget insurance! Not just health insurance but building insurance, life, disability, renters, umbrella, etc). What happens if your business is sued? Been there done that, and without a big-ol-insurance policy you can get screwed. People these days are trigger-happy on suing, especially with this crap economy.

[jaysmall13]

Id NEVER work for a NONtattooer or piercer they dont tattoo so they dont matter and have no business getting into tattooing!!!

[catchaser]

Id NEVER work for a NONtattooer or piercer they dont tattoo so they dont matter and have no business getting into tattooing!!!

The legal stuff and the business doesn't scare me in the least. I know business, that's why I have the means to help these guys out. But this is what does scare me. If down the road somebody gets restless and decides to move on I'm going to have a hell of a time finding a quality artist to fill their shoes. I know from watching my son trying to find an apprenticeship that it's a pretty closed community...

[David Flores]

The legal stuff and the business doesn't scare me in the least. I know business, that's why I have the means to help these guys out. But this is what does scare me. If down the road somebody gets restless and decides to move on I'm going to have a hell of a time finding a quality artist to fill their shoes. I know from watching my son trying to find an apprenticeship that it's a pretty closed community...

You don't know the tattoo business. I am not saying it's rocket science, but without some experience in it there is going to be quite a learning curve.

A couple quick things.

1. Two guys tattooing can probably make enough to pay their bills and keep the shop open, but there probably won't be much return on investment for awhile. I guess that depends on what money arrangement is and how busy the shop is, but generally the idea is that a shop owner is going to make money off the tattoos he does, at least for the first few years.

2. There is no guarantee that either of these people will stick around and even if you have an agreement it won't mean much if they skip town, you could go after them legally but it's a cash business and will be hard to collect. I would be weary why a good tattooer would want to work in a situation like this, my opinion is either they are not that good, aren't dependable or see this shop as something they can take advantage. I mean they make money while they work even if you shut your doors.

I am not saying do it or don't just a few observations.

[Donn]

@catchchaser

Just as long as you realize that no truly good tattooer will work for you and that you will only attract the flakier of tattooers because no reputable tattooer will work for you for any length of time. Any decent tattooer that does come your way will jump ship for a real shop as soon as one owned by a tattooer offers him a job. Its the difference between working for a fast food place and a gourmet restaurant, other than a quick paycheck you can't offer them real job advancement because you aren't really part of the business and have no connections.

I am just being honest with you because the few quality shops that are owned by non-tattooers are owned by people who had years in the business before they ever opened a shop, both in working in shops and getting tattooed by top quality people.

I won't even say good luck because I don't really wish it upon you but feel you should know what road lays ahead of you.

[catchaser]

I really appreciate the honest advise. You guys are telling me what I already knew but was afraid to say out loud. I would love to help these guys out, especially since one of them is my son but, I can't gift them the money. Business is business and if my chances of success are stacked against me from the inside out that could very well be what it is (a gift, not an investment). I understand the "community" protects itself but it's a shame an outsider can't help. I've tried to understand it watching my son develop his career and I'm not sure I completely get it yet...

[Shannon Shirley]

I understand a mothers love,support your son,help him to find his way. No talented tattooer will stay for any length of time,at a non tattooer owned shop.Been there ,It will only lead to trouble.

[SStu]

There are exceptions . . . . Three Tides in Osaka as a prime example.

[smiling.politely]

nah, man. there's no good tattooers that have stayed for decent amounts of time at Three Tides... or Frith Street, or New York Adorned for that matter. Just a rotation of flaky, inexperienced tattooers... right?

[Donn]

nah, man. there's no good tattooers that have stayed for decent amounts of time at Three Tides... or Frith Street, or New York Adorned for that matter. Just a rotation of flaky, inexperienced tattooers... right?

If you read my whole post I said that the few exceptions are owned by people with deep roots in the tattoo community not just somebody jumping in the business as an investment. lori from NYA spent years managing one of new yorks biggest shops before she ever opened her shop.

[David Flores]

nah, man. there's no good tattooers that have stayed for decent amounts of time at Three Tides... or Frith Street, or New York Adorned for that matter. Just a rotation of flaky, inexperienced tattooers... right?

I can only speculate, but I doubt Frith Street was started so someones 18 year old son could get an apprenticeship..

[smiling.politely]

@Donn and @David Flores...

I wasn't speaking on that gentleman's situation, nor to any one person in particular. If it came off that way, it was unintended. Just making light of people's hyperbolic statements that pop up in this thread over and over and over. Neither of you made said comments, mind you, but this thread is lousy with them.

[bulldog]

I have no problem with non tattooers open shops, business is business regardless of what you are selling. If someone wants to put time and money into business that makes them money then good luck to them. Personally I would rather a long term tattoo enthusiast open a shop than some young cock sure tattooist, looking locally 90% of tattooist shouldn't even be tattooing because they are shit, let alone running a shop.

[bulldog]

I actually have just read the last ten pages, interesting debate. i do stand by the above and it was not directed at anyone here, was just my view from the title of the thread.

The thing for me is the range of tattoo artist's is pretty wide, there are quality tattooist that are skilled at the craft and great artist and then there are tattooist like the one that put a great back rasied scar on my sister back, he owned a shop and was a "tattoo artist". I can understand the good artists who want the best for the industry and to protect it but surely its better if shop's puts out good work regardless of the owner.

Also as a business owner who is now winding down my company and looking too invest in new i can choose anything i want do, if that was a tattoo shop then so be it. I am actually at the moment looking at investing the last of my companies money into art, not body art but the stuff you hang on walls. What do i know about art, fuck all, but my girlfriend has been managing an art gallery in west london for 5 years and when i look at there monthly turn over against overheads its something that really interests me..! Its not without risk, its the last of my money and at nearly 40 with no pension and a divorce that cost me a fortune i need it to pay off. If it doesn't then so be it but if it does i'm sure there be a few green eyes in that industry too. Thinking about it a tattoo shop is a lot let risky, i havn't got put 100k into stock..joke.!

edit;

#kinda contradicting my self here but what i have noticed in the tattoo industry is the top artists who have great big waiting lists when using simple supply and demand economics they should put there prices up but they don't, they just let the list grow or close it, i really respect that.

[David Flores]

There are people who are going to succeed at what they do regardless of what people say and there are those that will quit at the first sign of resistance. I think any non tattooer that has any chance of opening up a successful shop, is not going to be looking for advice on a tattoo forum or at least they shouldn't be. If a couple people on the internet are enough to squash your dream then it clearly wasn't meant to be.

The other issue with the situation recently discussed is opening up a shop out of necessity vs opening up because it's a lucrative business venture. Not to mention the fact that no one involved has ever run a shop, so it would be the blind leading the blind. I think people put way too much emphasis on formal education when it comes to business and overlook real life experience when jumping into business ventures. Frith Street and New York Adorned don't happen everyday and they don't happen by accident.

In general I stand by the idea that it's not a good idea for a non tattooer to get involved in a tattoo shop, and I am not going to say there are always exceptions to the rule because that would imply some sort of dumb luck for the shops who have succeeded, and thrived who are run by non tattooers, which couldn't be farther from the truth.

[else]

Although I don't have any relevant tattoo-shop experience I have experienced a similar situation in the world of physical therapy/rehab.

I'm a speech therapist, there's A LOT of money in rehab now and it's been this way for about a decade or so. Once upon a time pretty much all the rehab companies were owned/run by actual therapists. But when business-people saw how much money could be made running a rehab company a lot of new companies were started up with nobody with any real rehab experience at the helm.

Those companies SUCK to work for. They don't understand what we really do in our day to day practice and there's a constant push to work in ways that push the boundaries of our ethics. The pursuit of the almighty $$ becomes more important than providing the best quality of care for our patients.

Right now, with the changes happening in Medicare/Medicaid, it looks like in the future there may be less money to be made in rehab. And although it's likely to affect my own pocketbook to some degree, I will be glad if it forces changes in the way rehab businesses are run.