Non-tattooers opening shops

[Ursula]

If you don't do tattoos, or have been tattooing less than 5 years you shouldn't even be thinking about opening a shop. I think.

[David Flores]

There is one shop locally that comes to mind. The shop is owned by a woman who doesn't tattoo or even pierce. She goes all around town talking to anyone who will listen about how she owns a tattoo shop and spending money, but doesn't have enough money to pay her tattooers for the tattoos that are paid by credit. Her shop is full of all the cool skull chairs and armrests and 20 year girls who worship her, it's kind of like Barbie's tattoo shop.

I know not all people operate like that, but this is the person who comes to mind when I read this post.

[Ursula]

just to play devils advocate... what about ny adorned. that shop is owned by a non tattooer and i cant see anyone saying anything bad about that shop.

/

there's always one exception to every rule apparently, and NY adorned would be it in this case.

[Deb Yarian]

just to play devils advocate... what about ny adorned. that shop is owned by a non tattooer and i cant see anyone saying anything bad about that shop.

I agree there are many wonderful and talented tattooers that have worked and work at NY Adorned-- does that make the owner any less of an interloper than other non-tattooer shop owners?

[Joe Shit]

Ideally you would wan't an owner to be a good respectable tattooer.But i know of shops where i live and the owner's are tattooers,but they suck at tattooing,and they hire other shitty artists.And there's still some of those biker owned shops around where the owner cant tattoo to save his life,and he hires his friends to work with him.On the other side,i know of a guy who took over a shop because his friend who was the owner died suddenly.That situation was not good,because he didn't have any tattoos,and he didn't know anything about the business...never worked in a shop before.I know a few shops excluding Adorned that aren't owned by a tattooer,and they seem to be run good,and have good tattooers.

[Deb Yarian]

there's always one exception to every rule apparently, and NY adorned would be it in this case.

Why?

[Ursula]

Because they obviously know what the fuck they are doing

[MsRad]

except for the jewelry shop. that's always seemed odd to me.

[Deb Yarian]

Because they obviously know what the fuck they are doing

I'm not challenging your opinion Ursula, just curious. The fact of the matter is the outcome doesn't change the intent.

The owner and the person that profits from the hard work of many good tattooers- is still not a tattooist.

[Ursula]

I agree. I was talking strictly about their tattooing.

I think if someone (non tattooer) has been working in a shop as a manager for a number of years they will have about the same knowledge of running a shop as some tattooers do, and more than some other tattooers. There of course are likely only a handful of people like this but they do exist I'm sure.

[Ursula]

Deb- I wasn't trying to say you were ;)

For me it's less about who's making the money and more about how the shop is run, how the artists and customers are being treated, the quality of the work, an the proximity to other shops.

Someone who actually knows what they are doing and is a non tattooer to me is better than some dip shit scratch artist who's ripping off their staff or clients and putting out awful work or someone who goes and opens a shop up where there is already good shops just to try an make more money than if they worked for someone else

[Shannon Shirley]

Im trying to come back to the biz after many yrs, I was thinking about going to work for someone that has no connection to the biz and only thinks about it as a biz. this thread is making me seriously rethink this.Ive never worked for a nontattooer, becomeing frightened.

[Ursula]

Shannon - im curious to know why you get out of tattooing ? What have you been doing for a living since you quit?

[Shannon Shirley]

I was working for GTC at the time and became frustrated with the biz, attitudes,clientele, you may know what a street shop is like, kinda tough. I was getting married and wanted to have medical benefits,etc . more than 10 yrs later i feel like that was a mistake.as was that marriage. I am at a point in my life that i feel like i need to focus on creativity rather than stability. At the time i thought i would settle down ,lol, i never really have. I built and repaired elevators before tattooing and that is what im currently doing although i never quit making some form of art which i have always done since i was a young child , Im 46. I hate regret.

[Shannon Shirley]

i just got off the phone with my old friend and fellow tattooer Martin Robson ,who has recently relocated back to his home England, after living in America for probably 25+ yrs. he has helped me with my delemma,working for a non tattooer is never a good idea, its all business,no love.

[luckystiff]

sorry but saying it is never a good idea is just wrong. i am a heavily tattooed long time collector who has also worked in a shop. i also have been in management for about as long as i've been getting tattooed. i can tell you that many shops are run HORRIBLY on the business side. so call managers are usually nothing more than a shop bitch at best. a situation where a non tattooer owning a shop can be a good thing is that person has time to actually RUN the shop, MARKET the shop, Promote the shop. these are things a tattooer worth his salt is costing him/herself money doing themselves. a good owner or hell even if a shop were to hire people to actually MANAGE the place can make night and day difference. want to run the hackers out? have someone marketing you so everytime someone wants a tattoo the first person they think of is YOU. will you cut off their flow fully? no. quite frankly you are always gonna have the cheapos who will not pay for good work. it doesn't matter if you were the only shop in town. if they found out they could get it done $20 cheaper in the next town and had to spend $15 in gas to go there and back guess what they'd do it to save that $5 in the end. those people are a wash and as soon as this business accepts that it'll be better for it. the world is full of cheapskates. some you can get the good tattoo vs bad tattoo through to them. most you're wasting oxygen.

i talked about opening a shop that focus' on GOOD artist and pushed the idea of steady guest artist to keep things fresh for locals who want variety. the response from my tattooer friends varied. alot thought it was a great idea because they know my passion for tattooing. the biggest negative came from a long time friend and shop owner who has done more than 100hrs of work on me and pretty close to that on my wife. yet when looking for a "shop girl" won't even reply to my inquiries.

i see the good and bad as i've been in shop settings where the owner wasn't a tattooer and took advantage. i've also been in plenty where the owner was a tattooer and took advantage. is it ok for a tattooer to take advantage of other tattooers?...ken....

[Shannon Shirley]

there are exceptions to every rule.

[Raskolnikov]

Deb- I wasn't trying to say you were ;)

Someone who actually knows what they are doing and is a non tattooer to me is better than some dip shit scratch artist who's ripping off their staff or clients and putting out awful work or someone who goes and opens a shop up where there is already good shops just to try an make more money than if they worked for someone else

Absolutely. Obviously you have to question why someone who does not give tattoos would want to open or co-manage/finance a shop in case it is based on opportunism or exploitation. But I know non-tattooists who would make fantastic shop owners based on integrity, proven business sense, attitude, as well as having as much or more knowledge about the art and history of tattooing than any tattooist I have met.

[eisen777]

Posting on this one topic since the other topic is pointless since this one exists. Wont lie, didn't read all 3 pages so If Im repeating something ....sorry.

So I guess I don't understand why someone (non-tattooer) who respects tattooing etc, provides a clean , quality location and fair split cant own and run a quality/respectable tattoo shop. Esp if they are devoted and have proven dedication. I get that its rare and hard esp now a days but people are people and even "tattooers" can be rip-off cash grabbers (i can think of examples like this in my location). But I understand the need to be guarded about the craft/trade/art of tattooing.

Dante Di Massa, frith street, is someone that comes to mind (as a positive example)....some great tattooers here work for him . Mario Desa I believe even does guest spots at Firth St. (Unless its under new ownership) Its a place Ive wanted to get work done at since I started getting heavily tattooed.

[ThaliaCamille]

So I guess I don't understand why someone (non-tattooer) who respects tattooing etc, provides a clean , quality location and fair split cant own and run a quality/respectable tattoo shop. Esp if they are devoted and have proven dedication. I get that its rare and hard esp now a days but people are people and even "tattooers" can be rip-off cash grabbers (i can think of examples like this in my location). But I understand the need to be guarded about the craft/trade/art of tattooing.

I would agree with this, and add that running any reasonably sized business is a job in itself. Obviously there are plenty of people who can be both creative and business-minded, and can split their time comfortably between the two. But I know if I had the option I'd rather spend my time creating, leaving the marketing/accounting/other business stuff I currently do to someone else.

(edit for clarity: I work in art/design/photography. Just realised how this post could be misconstrued...)

[David Flores]

This sounds nice in theory but I think many of the things traditional business people bring to the table don't work in tattooing. For example Running specials, Coupons, and Groupons are fine if you are selling sandwiches because you just put some more bread in the oven and bust open some more meat and cheese and hire a couple of minimum wage workers and you can probably still make money on half price sandwiches, you aren't turning away customers and people might actually come back for a full price sandwich because even then you are talking less than $10 bucks. But in a tattoo shop all you did was cut the money you made in the day in half and that customer is most likely only going to come back the next special you have or get tattooed by the guy down the street when he has a special. Plus how many people did you turn away that day that would have been willing to pay full price. I know this is just one example, but it seems to be what the business world thinks is going to increase business in a tattoo shop and no joke I have this conversation with some representative at least once a week.

[David Flores]

Like Shannon said there are exceptions to every rule. Ultimately I would imagine if you hire the right tattooers take a hands off approach and let them do their thing, a shop would run fine and it does because it is run like a tattoo shop and it would be hard to tell whether it was run by a tattooer or not.

I know one shop that used to be pretty talked about shop in the area and was in fact owned by a tattooer and still is. But his idea was to hire a shop manager who was basically a guy who graduated business school and he had put a few tattoos on. He interpreted his job to be to tell the tattooers how to conduct business and somehow had the impression he was their boss and could dictate when they came to work and how they conduct business. It really didn't go over well with anyone and he has basically in 6 years went from having the best shop in town to hiring kids right out of tattoo school. Everyone else moved on and either opened up their own shops or founds shops more than willing to hire them even though he got rid of his manager and runs the shop himself at this point.

In some ways I have a similar position, but don't consider myself anyone's boss and I guess understand my role . I am there to make tattooers jobs easier and to talk to people and help them get the best tattoo out of their idea. Our shop isn't the busiest or the most popular but it's a tattoo shop first and foremost and that it something that everyone here takes pride in.

[Tim Hendricks]

What about non-tattooers selling all of us tattoo equipment? Some will speak strongly against those who don't tattoo owning shops and swear off ever giving them money, but then will make an order with a non-tattooer owned supplier and unknowingly act hypocritical. I think in tattooing these days, in my opinion, we need good people who care about the business and who bring something positive to the table of tattooing, tattooer or not(although tattooer preferred). I just came back from working at Frith Street Tattoo in London, I watched a bunch of very well known and respected tattooers work there in the last two weeks, not to mention the incredibly talented crew that are residents their. The owner, Dante, is not a tattooer, but he is a good human being and cares for his employees as if they were family. I am proud to say I worked there and as far as Dante(the owner) goes, I would take a bullet for him.

[Valerie Vargas]

thats real nice of you to say tim, thank you. the shop i worked at before Frith st was owned by a non tattooer and at the time, i left with a real sour taste in my mouth. i wasnt sure about dante since i didnt know him but all i heard was good things from well respected tattooers and really, i was stoked to work at frith st, even for the one day a week i was started on. immediately i realised that this man knew and cared about tattooing more than i did then and probably even now.

He has been part of the tattooing 'scene' for many years now and well respected pillars of the scene call him friend. i'm proud to work there, to call him my boss and to be his friend. there's always an exception to the rule and as a shop i do feel we are one.

I've been long trying to buy my tattoo supplies from either people i know care about tattooing and from tattooers themselves. everyday is an ethical matter in tattooing, every choice you make affects tattooing and i have learnt to pick my battles carefully so to speak

[MGblues]

Need more proof:

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/34741_111339078917857_100001252962641_85096_6572535_n.jpg

This just opened up a few weeks ago in my area.

Beautiful shop...

just take a look at the portfolios...

Just sayin'