Occupy Wall Street

[Jaycel Adkins]

I totally understand, just venting a bit. That list is so catnip, makes me question it's origins a bit.

Personally, I just think that when you look at the Tea Party model vs. Tahrir Square model, the Tea Party model is what is going to work in the U.S. In fact, given the news out of Egypt, seems like the Tahrir model isn't working out as hoped for.

By definition, to have 'conviction' is to have a 'point of view,' I would hope this movement's point of view is that of the working/middle class. The one word I wish they would bring up is 'FAIR.' Not in some Starbuck 'fair-trade' way, which would just make tens of millions of people just smirk and change the channel. But 'fair' in the sense that it is not fair that hardworking and honest people are getting stuck with a bill for millionaire banker/businessmen/gamblers, who get to keep the profits.

Socializing losses, privatizing profits is NOT Capitalism.

That would resonate with more people, I mean, it's what resonates with me.

It's not about carpet bombing rich people, I don't have a grudge against people who create enough of something to sell at a profit that they become wealthy. Great!

It's the people who get/got rich by creating nothing, and then when it went to hell, stuck other people with the bill.

[Jaycel Adkins]

175 billion dollar tax-payer bailout in 2008. 32.6 billion paid out in bonuses to bank employees in 2008. Not one of the demands on that list is more ridiculous than that.

Demand three: Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment.

Paid for by whom? Taxpayers, Corporations, Government?

For what? How long?

For me, honestly, that just looks like a huge bonus for everyone. I don't think the solution is to make the problem bigger. But if you wanted to make the problem even bigger you could:

Demand eleven: Immediate across the board debt forgiveness for all. Debt forgiveness of sovereign debt, commercial loans, home mortgages, home equity loans, credit card debt, student loans and personal loans now! All debt must be stricken from the "Books." World Bank Loans to all Nations, Bank to Bank Debt and all Bonds and Margin Call Debt in the stock market including all Derivatives or Credit Default Swaps, all 65 trillion dollars of them must also be stricken from the "Books." And I don't mean debt that is in default, I mean all debt on the entire planet period.

To be honest, this one pretty much disgusts me. A bit of disclosure, I have significant debt, because I started a high capital small business, right at the beginning of this Great Recession. Right now I am working to pay it all back, which makes one think I would jump on this idea of debt-forgiveness, right?

Nope, I'm working to pay back every cent, because "I" made a bad call, it didn't work out, now "I" have to pay the piper, period.

But mostly, because I have self-respect.

Apologies for the rant, no disrespect meant.

[Avery Taylor]

The debt forgiveness is unrealistic, but it is a starting point for negotiation. You made bad decisions that led to your debt, and so did I. We accept that and we are both working to pay it back. However there are a lot of people out there who were targeted and tricked into mortgages that they had no business getting. I know our natural impulse is to say that they should have known better, but there is plenty of information out there showing how lenders used false information to trick these people.

I do feel that something should be done to make this right. As for you @Jacyel Adkins, and I unfortunately we will have to do it the old-fashioned way.

[Scott R]

The debt forgiveness is unrealistic, but it is a starting point for negotiation. You made bad decisions that led to your debt, and so did I. We accept that and we are both working to pay it back. However there are a lot of people out there who were targeted and tricked into mortgages that they had no business getting. I know our natural impulse is to say that they should have known better, but there is plenty of information out there showing how lenders used false information to trick these people.

I do feel that something should be done to make this right. As for you @Jacyel Adkins, and I unfortunately we will have to do it the old-fashioned way.

I am not a smart guy but wasnt this a result of the de-regulation of the housing market essentially giving bank credit for giving risky loans?

[Kev]

It'd be too big a jump. Minimum wage is supposed to be something that rises gradually, in step (roughly) with CPI/inflation. Just hiking it up to an arbitrary number like $20 would mean nothing but disproportionate rises in the cost of everything...

From the article Executive pay Executive pay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "The typical salary in the top of the list is $1 million - $3 million.[4] The typical top cash bonus is $10 million - $15 million.[5] The highest stock bonus is $20 million.[6] The highest option exercise have been in the range of $100 million - $200 million.[7]"

Now I'd like you to explain how that amount ISN'T arbitrary and unrealistic. Also, $20 an hour works out to about $32k after taxes-not sure how that's an unrealistic number.

The bottom line is the guys CAN'T do these jobs themselves-they're MBAs at the most and they're expertise lies in numbers and paperwork and even that is delegated to someone else. You honestly think the CEO of Coke knows how to make a batch or the CEO of Toyota could put a car together?

[Gregor]

Spot on Kev, these guys are paid stupid amounts of money . When companies want to save money , ceo's never take a cut , the reduce resource making the remaing workers work harder for no thanks. Look at the bonuses the bankers were getting and they caused all this shit.

[ThaliaCamille]

That's it though, the US government has left people in the lurch for too long, not raising minimum wage at appropriate intervals. There is no way to correct that immediately, and trying to do so would only have a negative effect. It has to be a gradual thing.

As for CEOs, they don't just pay themselves. Board members and shareholders determine the amount, and yes it's ridiculous, but there's no other way. Occasionally, people start throwing ideas around like "cap CEO salaries". Which, again, would only have negative effects, sending businesses offshore (and be kind of an affront to your whole "land of the free" thing).

[Avery Taylor]

The problem is not CEO salaries. The problem is how much influence these large corporations have over our government. The reason so much deregulation (in banking) has taken place since 1980 is rich assholes paying the elected officials to look after their interests and not those of the entire country. A few people making enormous amounts of money does not matter. It only matters when they are paying government officials to rewrite the Constitution so they can make those enormous amounts of money.

The George Carlin quote that Dari added at the beginning of this thread is dead on. Also some of you may have noticed that my location is Canada, but I am an American. I am married to a Canadian, and when we started weighing the pros and cons of raising a family in the US or Canada it did not take long to make a decision. I consider myself very lucky to have been given a choice. I am not saying that the Canadian government is perfect, but Canada was the right choice for my family. And even though I live in Canada I follow US politics and events much more closely than Canadian ones.

The final thing I will say is I don't think we should expect perfection from any government, but we should expect a hell of a lot more than what the US government is doing right now.

[JAllen]

the best way to hurt these institutions is to not invest in the stock market and pull your money out of the large banks and move it to local credit unions. support local economy whenever you can and dont use these bloated crooks for any of your investment/credit/financial needs. also write your representatives and tell them to vote on this bill as well as sign this petition. Audit the Fed

also a couple of the banks bailed out for reckless mortgage practices were already federally funded lenders. and be aware that this isn't just a result of bush or obama or any particular party. everyone wants to talk about how great the economy was when clinton was in office but the market crashed in 2000 right after he left office due to the same types of corruption by banks, accounting firms, and stock brokerages. people were bailed out then as well just not done so in such a broad public manner. its a cycle that will continue to repeat itself until we control where our money goes.

[Kev]

Hoping to hear info from you Bay Area members on this: #OWS Shuts Down Oakland, California

[ThaliaCamille]

Local branch has pretty much imploded here. There were about 100 people left yesterday when they were asked to move on. Most complied (and the cops provided vehicles to help move all their stuff!), about 20 sat down and were moved off 1 by 1. Most of the city is concerned with the $30k worth of damage they did to the park. They're now arguing with each other over Facebook about where they'll "Occupy" next. The Premier (like our state's "Governor") even offered them another inner-city-but-out-of-the-way park to set up in.

[Lochlan]

I just learned of the significance and speculations of November Fifth in relation to the movie V for Vendetta and the infamous hackers group plus other groups.....i wonder wonder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBadSmt2CIY

[Kev]

Personally, I never understood the Guy Fawkes association (outside the "V for Vendetta" comic, which is set in ENGLAND). Guy Fawkes and others were plotting to kill the Protestant King James I (the bible editor) and they were executed for treason, leading to a lot of anti-Catholic stuff in England and empowerment of Puritans.

Give me a Thomas Paine mask any day;)

[Tight-Lines]

Hoping to hear info from you Bay Area members on this: #OWS Shuts Down Oakland, California

Im so sick of this shit honestly. I like Frank O plaza and would like to get Panda Express sooner or later.

[Scott R]

Alot of these occupiers must have awesome bosses to be able to take this much time off work :rolleyes:

[Jaycel Adkins]

All becoming clearer now....

[truejew]

These people have nothing to lose. They are not like most of us who have work no matter what. They don't have jobs or homes to go back to. Course some of them are young hipsters that are in it for the cool factor. But I thinks its a cause I can support.

[Dr Benway]

A lot of them are full-time protesters. I went that route in my 20s and it was by far the most stressful and difficult work I have ever done. It is far easier to get a job and play the game. Some of the others ARE taking time off work, whilst others are either unemployed or retired. Either way, that a lot of these people are sacrificing a comfortable life of earning money and getting expensive tattoos is incredibly humbling. Unless I am actively helping to end the current situation, then I don't feel I can find a good reason to snipe at them, or find ridiculous reasons to get pissed off with the whole movement just because of one person's set of demands.

[Gregor]

Its not easy to get a job and play the game tho .n lots of people dont have the time or resource to go protesting because they are poor and need to pay bills and support their families. I was part of anti-fash , anti-polltax and anti-nuke in the 80's and its fine if you have no responsibilities and can dedicate your time to it (and live off the benefits given by the state ....), but once you get some you need to focus on getting money to support your life.

[Dr Benway]

Agreed Gregor - in fact it's almost impossible to be able to give a lot of time to protesting, which I guess is part of the problem. When I was protesting a lot I was also working part-time, or I would take leave from work when I was full-time. But it was a stretch, and took a lot of dedication and energy to make it work. Not all of them are on benefits, and some of them are people who have been made redundant because of the actions of the bankers. I guess for those people there is nothing left to do other than protest the current autocratic/plutocratc system.

What kind of antifa by the way - ANL, AFA? The Poll Tax Protest/Riot in London was my first ever demo at the age of 16 - I have never been on anything like it since.

[Gregor]

AFA / Class War ... It wasnt a great experience tbh , a lot of kids in AFA were just as narrow minded and violent as the fash ...I used to hunt sab regularly too

[Dr Benway]

Sounds like we have very similar backgrounds. My experiences were mixed - I preferred active, positive campaigns such as working in local areas, or prisoner support. Some of the activism was great and a useful experience, and some of it was just plain depressing, and in some cases involved a lot of trips to the hospital (or police station)! It would probably do us a lot of good to not talk about that side of things too much, but suffice to say that militant antifa in the UK has some of the most selfless and committed, lovely people I have ever met. But also loads of utter twats too. Sabbing is one of the least pleasurable things I have ever done with my time, but also one of the most rewarding.

[jade1955]

@Dr Benway. I was at the poll tax demo in London in 1990 and was an active member of my local Anti Poll Tax Union. Here's a link to an article I found in the Independent. It certainly brought back some memories. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-battle-of-trafalgar-square-the-poll-tax-riots-revisited-1926873.html.

The demonstration was very well organised with sufficient stewarding to deal with lumpens like Class War who turn up to these events just to fight with the cops. The police then changed the route a few days before the demo. What a great idea. For me the rally was just one day out of a long and succesful campaign.

One of the main differences, as I see it, is that unlike the Occupy Wall Street/ Anti-Capitalist Demonstrators the Federation that led the campaign against the poll tax had a clear program, strategy and tactics.

[Dr Benway]

@jade1955 - Thanks for the article link, very interesting indeed and reminded me about some things I had forgotten. My Dad was a shop steward in the British Airways union who supported the miners strike and the local anti-poll tax federation in West London. There's a couple of good books about the galvanising of support for the anti-poll tax movements - a truly unique moment in people not prepared to take Tory shit anymore. I wasn't involved with Class War for long - mainly because they were mainly arseholes, although there were some people involved in it who were genuinely interested in local activities, rather than just grandstanding and getting pissed in Brighton pubs all day. Their presence at the Poll Tax protests was one of the first times I had come into contact with them, and as a 16-year-old it was hard not to be caught up in the sense of humour and kicking against the pricks attitude. When the protest kicked off it was pretty scary, at least for me, and people were getting royally battered. But it was also invigorating to see people helping each other and being genuinely angry about a completely unfair Government policy.

I agree with your last paragraph, but the anti-poll tax movement at least had a very clear law and set of people to oppose, which helped. The current movements are opposing the very system that creates something like the poll tax in the first place. yeah, it's probably too broad, but single issue politics only deals with symptoms, not the real problem. The net is being cast wide because it has to be, and involves so many people with differing political viewpoints that drawing together a communal manifesto is practically impossible. For me it is a huge step that the notion of capitalism as a flawed social system has become mainstream. When I was at school in the 80s, pointing out that the current financial markets do not work, and that the banks should be nationalised, and that pursuing a system of laissez-faire free-market capitalism is ultimately a form of destructive social Darwinism, was tantamount to treason.