The end of an apprentice - sacking your mentor.

[Bubbleberry]

Oh ok so she already knows she's a good artist. Well that's good, that's half the battle right there, right? Yeah, I mean why would she want the opinion of people who have been doing what she wants to do for years? Seeing as how she doesn't know anyone on here and never will. I mean it's certainly not like anyone on here knows each other in real life, especially not the tattooers! Makes sense, thanks for clearing that up!

When I say artist, I am not referring to tattooing, but yes she feels she is a good artist, and she gauges that based on comments from other artists,based on comments by her teachers and lecturers over the past 20 years.

She does not like forums because she feels people spend to much time putting each other down and trying to be better, trying to be right.

But she is a pretty quiet person, and she does keep herself to herself, so perhaps she would rather not expose herself on-line to hostile people.

Which is her right.

[CaptCanada]

Nah, we had it pretty sweet over here before people started showing up and start asking about "how do's" "what if's" ect.. Just sitting around talking about the history of tattooing, tattoo artists we admire, new tattoos we were getting, and what not, but never diving to much into the trade of tattooing. Here at LST, much like a tattoo studio, if you sit there pay attention and listen you will get little bits of information about the craft, weither you're a tattoo artist or not, but you need to be willing to listen.

Edit: post about find stuff to complain about

[Bubbleberry]

Nah, we had it pretty sweet over here before people started showing up and start asking about "how do's" "what if's" ect.. Just sitting around talking about the history of tattooing, tattoo artists we admire, new tattoos we were getting, and what not, but never diving to much into the trade of tattooing. Here at LST, much like a tattoo studio, if you sit there pay attention and listen you will get little bits of information about the craft, weither you're a tattoo artist or not, but you need to be willing to listen.

Well if its any help, speaking as someone who asked the troublesome questions, but who has no interest in learning how to tattoo, I can totally understand your frustration. And I do read lots and lots of posts regarding the history and the works of tattooers. I just do not comment because I feel my opinion will be slammed, and perhaps with good reason.

I would offer a solution...now bear with me on this...

If the forum had a section titled something like " How To Tattoo - Technical Questions and Answers", those who wanted to post questions that annoy the artists would have somewhere to do so, and the artists would know to ignore that section completely.

Every time someone posted a technical question elsewhere the moderators could move it, and every time the question was ignored the asker would learn that this was not the place to ask.

It seems like work, but it may stop people getting annoyed, although no doubt this suggestion will do just that?

Bottom line, if Scott and co wanted this a tattooers only forum, that's what it would be.

[Perez]

HAHAHAHA YES! CLEARLY that is what Scott Sylvia had in mind! A nice forum where non-tattooers (who have no interest in tattooing of course!) could ask technical how-to questions from each other without annoying a bunch of tattooers, who are hanging out, you know, "over there!"

You sir, truly, are the limit!

[MsRad]

Well if its any help, speaking as someone who asked the troublesome questions, but who has no interest in learning how to tattoo, I can totally understand your frustration. And I do read lots and lots of posts regarding the history and the works of tattooers. I just do not comment because I feel my opinion will be slammed, and perhaps with good reason.

I would offer a solution...now bear with me on this...

If the forum had a section titled something like " How To Tattoo - Technical Questions and Answers", those who wanted to post questions that annoy the artists would have somewhere to do so, and the artists would know to ignore that section completely.

Every time someone posted a technical question elsewhere the moderators could move it, and every time the question was ignored the asker would learn that this was not the place to ask.

It seems like work, but it may stop people getting annoyed, although no doubt this suggestion will do just that?

Bottom line, if Scott and co wanted this a tattooers only forum, that's what it would be.

how about if people who do not tattoo just don't ask technical questions? it would appear that tattoo artists usually ask other artists, face to face or in private through email. that's probably for the best.

[CaptCanada]

I belive it would be a good idea that in the sticky that is being written for "tattoo noobies, welcome to LST" that we have a rule # what ever, no sharing of technical information that we can point out to people when they ask a question that goes a little bit to over the limit.

[cfgsteak]

Bubble...it seems like stuff works pretty good outside of your experience. Why should the whole forum need to change to acommodate one or two people who don't seem to get it?

[Perez]

Well, ultimately it's up to tattooers to just not answer the questions.

People are going to ask questions and occasionally step over the line, especially people new to this who don't know any better. Most of the time it's an honest mistake, it's no big deal and a gentle correction should suffice. It's when people start demanding to know things, like we owe them something, that there's a problem.

[hogg]

Great post, Perez. All they can do is ask, and all the pros have to do is not answer.

[Bubbleberry]

I like that idea Capt, and no doubt there are things that have been discussed. The major problem, as has already become apparent in this thread, is that some people just enjoy being annoyed !

LST welcome page states...

"Last Sparrow Tattoo is an eZine, picture gallery, and community for tattoo artists and tattoo enthusiasts created by iconic tattoo artist Scott Sylvia, and Lochlan McHale. Whether you are completely covered in tattoos or looking to get your first one, this is the best place to check out tattoo pictures, design ideas, find the best tattoo artists, or just hang out and chat in our Tattoo Forum."

It does not say anything about being an artist only forum, it does not indicate that you have to have industry knowledge or anything of the sort.

It would be nice to see artists and those who line their pockets chatting to each other about all aspects of the industry, and there is no reason why this should not happen.

For me, the problem comes when people start thinking they are better than each other, that their opinions are more important, that because of their experience they have the right to talk down or insult people.

For me the problem comes when one person try s to change another.

Its hard to ignore people who annoy us, on-line or in the real world, but the same courtesy's should apply, no matter where you hang out.

People will ask questions,we have no control over that, but we can control how we react.

[Bubbleberry]

Well, ultimately it's up to tattooers to just not answer the questions.

People are going to ask questions and occasionally step over the line, especially people new to this who don't know any better. Most of the time it's an honest mistake, it's no big deal and a gentle correction should suffice. It's when people start demanding to know things, like we owe them something, that there's a problem.

Exactly

[Jaycel Adkins]

http://www.lastsparrowtattoo.com/forum/forum-suggestions-feedback/1093-suggestions-aiding-newcomers.html

[MsRad]

those who line their pockets chatting to each other about all aspects of the industry

you just hit the nail on the head. here's the thing, most of us don't talk about all aspects of the industry, especially those of us who don't tattoo. it's kind of like a secret recipe, you might get most of the basic ingredients, maybe even their amounts, but the spices or the signature ingredient is left out. because why pay for the milk if you can get the cow for free?

most of us (at least i think) are perfectly fine with not knowing every single detail about what it takes to make a tattoo if we're not tattooing. there are aspects of the industry that i'm curious about, and if i asked an artist in person about them, i might even get an answer, but if i was told "sorry i'm not going to answer that", then i would respect it and back off. while your statement about the internet is true, that you can learn just about anything from searching around, this community is not the answer to all of your questions, and if someone says "no" then you should also respect that there is a reason why they said "no". it's ok to ask, and i agree, if you're new to something, you may not be aware of boundaries, but when someone says to "stop", then you should stop. this goes to most situations in life, online and off.

[Jake]

For me, the problem comes when people start thinking they are better than each other, that their opinions are more important

Well, looks like I'm gonna be the dickhead to say this.....

SOME PEOPLE ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS.

Do you really think your opinion on tattooing is equal to Horiyoshi III's (picking a random important artist just to illustrate a point)

For me the problem comes when one person try s to change another.

Are you not right now trying to change our outlooks? That's a bit hypocritical....

[Ursula]

Fuck I just wrote a big post and accidentally deleted it.

My main point was this.

Brian - STOP POSTING THIS SHIT. All you do is cause huge arguments and you never even take the good advice given to you. I hadn't seen you here in a week or so and I was kind of happy about it.

Go ahead and call me a cunt but I'm just saying what everyone else is thinking. If your wife wants to learn, she can make her own account but it sounds like she already knows more than anyone else here, or she's too stupid to realize the wealth of knowledge at her fingertips.

[Bubbleberry]

Go ahead and call me a cunt .

Not sure I would call anyone that - its a pretty disgusting word, and I am quite astonished that you would eve use in on an open forum, but if the cap fits...

[Ursula]

It's a word like any other word. It has no more or less power than any other word out there.

[MsRad]

It's a word like any other word. It has no more or less power than any other word out there.

i completely disagree with that... but i can agree to disagree.

can we just stop the snarky bantering back and forth and let this thread die?

[Scott R]

I havnt been a member long, but as a non tattooer it upsets me that some of the artists are posting less because of us. I and most from what I can tell are grateful to be on this site with awesome artists and have no intention on doing anything other than getting good tattoos from good artists. I dont want to market anything or make money. I want to learn more so I am in position to get some great work and share it with the place that is getting me on the right path.

[mario desa]

i thought it was said a long time ago there would be a "tattooer only" section of this forum? that would be the best thing to happen on this forum, i think. i barely look at it because it's mostly non-tattooers pontificating on something they know little or nothing about or talking about bullshit that has nothing to do with tattooing, or idiots like bubblebooty.

i don't mean to come off as a dick or some kind of elitist, but i think the tattooers on here may understand what i mean.

[jade1955]

I don't think that the idea of a tattooer only section is elitist Mario, although I would hate to see the tattooers on here disappear into that section of the forum. One of the pleasures I get is reading rather than posting (most of my posting activity is in the non tattoo section) and there's a good reason for that. Unfortunately some people join forums to seek attention and act the "Big I am". As someone once said "opinions are like arseholes, everybody has one". Unfortunately some people have trouble grasping the concept that unless a contribution to a discussion has some point or merit it's best to keep your arsehole to yourself.

[David Flores]

I came to this forum to find other people into getting tattooed with knowledge to share. I found that and as a bonus some of the top tattooers in the world speaking freely about tattoos and other various topics.

Before my son was born I spent six days in the week behind the counter of the shop and the other day getting tattooed at another shop in town, now i work only Friday and Saturday. So the rest of the week I interact with soccer moms at Target and the park. It's nice to have a place to come and chat during my downtime and getting a perspective outside the shop you have grown comfortable in. I would hate for it all to go away.

[Perez]

I don't think that the idea of a tattooer only section is elitist Mario, although I would hate to see the tattooers on here disappear into that section of the forum. One of the pleasures I get is reading rather than posting (most of my posting activity is in the non tattoo section) and there's a good reason for that. Unfortunately some people join forums to seek attention and act the "Big I am". As someone once said "opinions are like arseholes, everybody has one". Unfortunately some people have trouble grasping the concept that unless a contribution to a discussion has some point or merit it's best to keep your arsehole to yourself.

I think the saying actually goes: "Opinions are like assholes, and bubbleberry is goatse"

[Bubbleberry]

I think the saying actually goes: "Opinions are like assholes, and bubbleberry is goatse"

You can pat each other on the back all you want, congratulate yourselves on a shared opinion, it does not change the point that when I start a thread, it interests some people enough to positively contribute, and others not. While you are all snuggling up under the warmth of your egos, you fail to see, that had you simply ignored that which you do not agree with, we may not be having this argument.

I have read through the various threads that I started, and usually people engage in polite, if somewhat passionate debate. THEN, the same people come along, again and again and act like they have a right to talk down or be rude, and the topic goes off course.

Try some rigorus self honesty and see what part you have played in these arguments instead of blaming me for asking questions you do not like.

[The Hyena]

It's easy to write off dissenting opinions as "hating" or "ego maniacal". Don't make that mistake here. Look at how you approach us instead once in a while. We are this harsh to ourselves, and each other bye the way. Not just in critiques. If you are looking for the "passive happy information machines" go somewhere else.