Apprenticeship vs. Schools vs. Self-Taught

[Mel Noir]

Yeah, I have to agree with Ursula here- I know cake makers who are up at 4.30AM every morning!

[MsRad]

Dan, I'm having a hard time figuring out the tone of your message. I hope you aren't trying to imply with the last sentence that tattooing is a more special thing than other trades. I can assure you there are people who feel as strongly about their trade or craft as tattooers do about theirs. There's people who put as much hard work, time, money, etc. into their craft as a tattooer or tattoo apprentice does.

but there are also those, just as with tattooing, who imitate the crafts that Dam mentioned also on a subpar level (as you have described from your own experiences Ursula). like the "chocolate maker" who buys the candy chips at their local craft store along with a candy mold. to me, that's just reshaping it, that's not making chocolate. a true chocolate maker sources beans, roasts them very carefully (usually, in small batches at first), then grinds them to make the chocolate liquor, adds just the right amount of sugar and vanilla, then tempers it until it's perfectly ready to be molded. that's a true chocolate maker.

just like i sew, but i wouldn't call myself a seamstress. my grandmother slaved over a sewing machine altering various uniforms for the local police and post office, working 10 to 12 hour days just to keep her business alive for over 20 years. she was a seamstress. me? i just hem my pants and dream about quilting.

anyways, back to Dan's post. i don't know if this is how he meant it, but i took it as his sarcasm also was directed towards those who are hobbyists, and not dedicated craftspeople. also, i dont think you have to spend every waking hour dedicated to your craft to be considered "serious" about it, but i think it should be a big part of your passion, and a driving force in your life.

[kylegrey]

Try being a competitive body-builder for dedication ,I don't know of anything else where what you do for 24 hours impacts your craft .Imagine weighing every morsel of food ,eating 5-6 times a day at 2-3 hour intervals ,training twice a day although your eating severely reduced carbs=energy,no late nights ,no alcohol,no restaurants ,zero social life ,no money cause you spent it all on grocerys with no chance of any financial reward ever .

[pixxillatted]

Interesting thread going here, just wanted to chime in about a small point. To Stewart, I think the portfolio thing started as a way to show the shop you were approaching your current skill level- meaning can you pull a stong line (on paper at least), can you stay in the lines, and does your work look like something you put thought and time into. It's more a side note in the points for or against taking that person on as an apprentice. If they don't have some basics of shading, perspective and dimensions that means you'd have to teach those as well as tattooing. Also, alot of colleges drum into their students that you need a portfolio/resume for EVERYTHING. A couple friends of mine were forced to take a portfolio creating class, it was mandatory though completely unrelated to their career field.

Phone ins and form letters for apprenticeships are pretty sad. I've come across people who post things on craigslist, FB and twitter stating "yo, im lookin to be a tat2 apprentice. call me if ur interest!" yeah, that'll work.

[Valerie Vargas]

i think dan's entire post was being sarcastic, no?

[Stewart Robson]

pixxillatted, I know that's what colleges and universities teach you to do. Almost everything I learned at university had to be un-learned for tattooing. Although I do still use some of the basic guidelines regarding the structure and pace of a portfolio.

From now, I'm sticking with Dan and jinxproof. This particular subject is one where people who know nothing about it, love to talk about it.

[Jaycel Adkins]

MsRad:

like the "chocolate maker" who buys the candy chips at their local craft store along with a candy mold. to me, that's just reshaping it, that's not making chocolate. a true chocolate maker sources beans, roasts them very carefully (usually, in small batches at first), then grinds them to make the chocolate liquor, adds just the right amount of sugar and vanilla, then tempers it until it's perfectly ready to be molded. that's a true chocolate maker.

My goodness, something that I am not ignorant about, my lucky day :p

MsRad, you are certainly correct, there are two groups of chocolatiers, roasters and melters. Roasters, Steve de Vries being the most talented, in my humble opinion, are what you are talking about. Interestingly enough he once owned a glass blowing business and used his knowledge of that field to help inform his techniques in his new passion, making pure chocolate bars.

Then there are melters, which is what I was. It is here that we find ourselves in disagreement.

I was a bonbon specialist, meaning I took chocolate, from 'chocolate-makers,' which I melted to approximately 98 degrees F, then cooled down to approximately 89 degrees F, then raised again about 1 or 2 degrees F, all while agitating the chocolate, in order to temper it, forming the most favorable crystals, that create a stable product for shelf life, a smooth mouthfeel for customers, and a delightful snap, as the chocolate is bitten into, in addition to a beautiful sheen/gloss. So that is step one.

Step two: I boil cream and then let cool to match temperature of the chocolate I am going to use from step one, in addition, I bring to room temperature any flavoring I am going to use to make the bonbon unique and distinctive, perhaps a puree of blood oranges, a shot of cognac, scrapped vanilla beans, etc. etc.

Step three: I blended all of the above together, at the right ratios, of course, until I get a glossy pudding like consistency, while never taking the chocolate out of it's temperature range from step one, which would melt away the crucial crystals.

Step four: I pour this, what is called, ganache, onto baking paper that is held down with 1/4 inch bars atop a marble tabletop, which I then even out to a consistent height via the bars, being quick as you only get one or two passes to make everything smooth, before your passes start to break the ganache, making it a grainy mess.

Step five: I cover and leave over night to fully cool.

Step six: Cut into large panels that will fit into a cutting guitar, then spreading a thin coating of chocolate on top, which will be the bonbons finished bottoms.

Step seven: I cut, using a machine we call a guitar to make exact sized squares of ganache, separating and allowing to air dry during the day.

Step eight: While ganache is 'drying' I turn on my tempering machine, which I use to coat the chocolates. If you have seen videos of chocolates going down a steel wire conveyor belt, into a dual curtain of flowing chocolate, it's that machine.

Step nine: I place rows of finished ganache into back of machine and allow them to be carried through two curtains of chocolate, coating them entirely, after they come through the machine, while still drying, I place various decors to mark their flavors: nuts, using a fork to make designs, colored cocoa butter transfer sheets, etc. etc.

Step ten: I place them into a specially controls frig for a few minutes in order to completely set, ensuring an even cooling, which plays a role in what I talked about in step one.

Now, you are certainly technically correct about your idea of the roasters making chocolate, but I have to disagree with the spirit of the idea.

It's not either/or, it's a continuum, I think.

It's iike saying that the farmer is the person really responsible for your great meal at a great restaurant. They are certainly necessary, but they are certainly not sufficient for the wonderful experience you had.

So I agree with you, I just agree with you plus...lol.

Loves chocolate and misses it...:(

[MsRad]

MsRad:

My goodness, something that I am not ignorant about, my lucky day :p

MsRad, you are certainly correct, there are two groups of chocolatiers, roasters and melters. Roasters, Steve de Vries being the most talented, in my humble opinion, are what you are talking about. Interestingly enough he once owned a glass blowing business and used his knowledge of that field to help inform his techniques in his new passion, making pure chocolate bars.

Then there are melters, which is what I was. It is here that we find ourselves in disagreement.

I was a bonbon specialist, meaning I took chocolate, from 'chocolate-makers,' which I melted to approximately 98 degrees F, then cooled down to approximately 89 degrees F, then raised again about 1 or 2 degrees F, all while agitating the chocolate, in order to temper it, forming the most favorable crystals, that create a stable product for shelf life, a smooth mouthfeel for customers, and a delightful snap, as the chocolate is bitten into, in addition to a beautiful sheen/gloss. So that is step one.

Step two: I boil cream and then let cool to match temperature of the chocolate I am going to use from step one, in addition, I bring to room temperature any flavoring I am going to use to make the bonbon unique and distinctive, perhaps a puree of blood oranges, a shot of cognac, scrapped vanilla beans, etc. etc.

Step three: I blended all of the above together, at the right ratios, of course, until I get a glossy pudding like consistency, while never taking the chocolate out of it's temperature range from step one, which would melt away the crucial crystals.

Step four: I pour this, what is called, ganache, onto baking paper that is held down with 1/4 inch bars atop a marble tabletop, which I then even out to a consistent height via the bars, being quick as you only get one or two passes to make everything smooth, before your passes start to break the ganache, making it a grainy mess.

Step five: I cover and leave over night to fully cool.

Step six: Cut into large panels that will fit into a cutting guitar, then spreading a thin coating of chocolate on top, which will be the bonbons finished bottoms.

Step seven: I cut, using a machine we call a guitar to make exact sized squares of ganache, separating and allowing to air dry during the day.

Step eight: While ganache is 'drying' I turn on my tempering machine, which I use to coat the chocolates. If you have seen videos of chocolates going down a steel wire conveyor belt, into a dual curtain of flowing chocolate, it's that machine.

Step nine: I place rows of finished ganache into back of machine and allow them to be carried through two curtains of chocolate, coating them entirely, after they come through the machine, while still drying, I place various decors to mark their flavors: nuts, using a fork to make designs, colored cocoa butter transfer sheets, etc. etc.

Step ten: I place them into a specially controls frig for a few minutes in order to completely set, ensuring an even cooling, which plays a role in what I talked about in step one.

Now, you are certainly technically correct about your idea of the roasters making chocolate, but I have to disagree with the spirit of the idea.

It's not either/or, it's a continuum, I think.

It's iike saying that the farmer is the person really responsible for your great meal at a great restaurant. They are certainly necessary, but they are certainly not sufficient for the wonderful experience you had.

So I agree with you, I just agree with you plus...lol.

Loves chocolate and misses it...:(

i used to work at Schraffen Berger when it still was the main plant and small batches were still the focus. Technically, in order for a company or individual to have the title "chocolate maker" in their name, you have to have a "bean to bar" operation (and if my memory serves me correct, this is according to the FDA so it applies to the US only). anyways, i while i don't think you're less of a chocolatier, i don't think you're a chocolate maker, but a bon bon maker. nothing wrong with that, and it's just as labor intensive as making small batch chocolate, but very different from what i was talking about. i more of meant the people who go out to Michaels and purchase those colored "chocolate" (which they're not) chips and then melt them, pour them into molds, and then instantly they're selling "pops" or "chocolate" which is really no better than the Hershey's bar bought from your local grocery store. that's all i meant. it's not hard to take a bag of chocolate chips, melt them in the microwave or with a homemade double boiler, and then form them in a bar and slap your name on them. it does take work to make handmade confections of the extent that you've described.

man, now i'm craving chocolate.

[Jaycel Adkins]

MsRad:

man, now i'm craving chocolate.

Is nibbling on chips of Valrhona Jivara right now! Milky chocolate caramel note goodness.....

I'm so trying not to completely geek out and hassle you with questions, but alas no.

edit: I agree with you, certainly!! I would say that when someone says 'true' it has a number of meanings, factually true, a priori, by definition, etc. But then spirit of the word, like true also means authenticity, genuine, virtuous, etc. etc. But yes I agree 1000%, I am very happy to say I was a chocolatier, but not a chocolate-maker. If that makes sense? I hope!

It's a beautiful thing.

Did you ever get to go to France while doing chocolates? Patrick Roger? Genin?

In any event, a humble gift given in generous spirit of those of us, once and forever, in the chocolate trade:

Try This!

[Dan Martin]

Ok what the hell is going on here?!? I thought LST was a tattoo forum.

I don't care about your candy and please don't compare it to tattooing. If you're passionate about what you do, great, but understand so am I. I don't know shit about making chocolate, and wouldn't dare discuss what I think chocolatiers do or think, on a forum no less, in fear of embarrassing the shit out of myself.

Tattooers know tattooing from a perspective that only comes from being immersed in tattooing and discussing this with laymen repeatedly is annoyingly painful.

I'm happy people of all walks love tattoos but embrace the tattoos themselves. There's no need to dissect what tattooers do or don't do, and there's no need to compare it to anything else.

Eat your chocolate, love it, enjoy it, and then go do something else for fuck sake...

[Ursula]

Tattooers know tattooing from a perspective that only comes from being immersed in tattooing and discussing this with laymen repeatedly is annoyingly painful.

I'm happy people of all walks love tattoos but embrace the tattoos themselves. There's no need to dissect what tattooers do or don't do, and there's no need to compare it to anything else.

Not everyone who doesn't do tattoos is a know nothing idiot. I know many of you won't believe this but there are some people who are immersed in tattooing who aren't tattooers. No I haven't sat and done tattoos all day but there are people who have been around the shop more and know more about the art than half of the apprentices and a bunch of the tattooers I've met.

If you'd open your mind to other things you'd realize that there are crafts that can be compared to tattooing. Not right down to the last detail but there's a lot of things you have to do that other craftsmen also have to do. If you think you know enough about every field out there to say you're better than someone else because of your profession, then you are no better than the people you complain about.

[Ursula]

Do you not think that someone who's dedicated their life to a craft has something in common with you, who claims to have done the same?

[ShawnPorter]

Doing tattoos day in and day out makes you a professional. Like the person who did the tattoo above. As always I say "your team".

If that person is more relevant to tattoo culture than some of us non-tattooers....

[ShawnPorter]

i think dan's entire post was being sarcastic, no?

I would say condescending instead of sarcastic.

[Ursula]

I just wanted to say I can't wait to meet some of you guys in person at a convention or something. It's either gonna be great or the worst ever.

[ShawnPorter]

I just wanted to say I can't wait to meet some of you guys in person at a convention or something. It's either gonna be great or the worst ever.

Pfft. Conventions are SO last year. :D

[Stewart Robson]

Every rule has exceptions.

It's difficult to discuss anything if we concentrate on making allowances for the tiny minority of exceptions.

When discussing negative things we should be (and most of us are) thankful that there are exceptions, but that doesn't mean we need to make great effort not to hurt feelings.

If we're picking apart Dan's use of language, wouldn't someone who is 'immersed in tattooing' be exempt from the title 'layman'? I didn't see where he mentioned being a 'professional', just being 'immersed'. Subtle difference in wording with a massive difference in meaning.

I agree with you both, Shawn and Ursula but you just both seemed to read something that I didn't think was there. It's easy to talk about 'us vs them' but often the sides are dictated by quality and attitude, rather than how you earn a living.

Those on the 'inside' know where they stand, regardless of their profession. In the 'real' word it's easy to identify them by the way their tattoos look and how they conduct themselves. Online is different, real sincerity is more difficult to detect.

Dan's remark about keeping quiet about things we know nothing about is some of the best advice anyone could give. Sometimes, if I'm feeling generous to seemingly honest people asking how to learn to tattoo I tell them to be mindful of the wise old owl. "...the less he spoke, the more he heard..."

[Ursula]

You're right stewart, I took immersed as meaning tattooers, maybe I shouldn't have.

I do still stand by my remarks about tattooing being comparable to other things.

[Jaycel Adkins]

Hello,

Hmm...Apologies to those whose hearts were hurt, professions affronted, and time seemingly wasted by this thread.

It's just a thread, it's just conversation....in a forum.

If it's contents pose a danger to tattooing, either your own, your colleagues/peers, and all future tattooers, who are unlucky to read this, there are some real easy solutions:

1. We can ask an admin or moderator to either close the thread or delete it.

2. Or people who have strong opinions can make an attempt to smash the ideas in my first post.

I would go with #2 myself.

Trying to argue about whether people can or can't go on a tangent or off-topic in a public forum just doesn't go anywhere interesting or seem being worth the trip.

I respect everyone here, as a starting point, and don't try and sketch out ill intent in what they say or how they say it, it's an open forum, the point is to be yourself and say what you like, but it's also give people the chance to offer up their own thoughts.

Don't agree with me, that's great, I'll be honest, talking to the mirror isn't interesting.

But I would ask that you address what I say, rather than droning on about how I have no right to say it.

I came on here and signed my name by my opinions, how ever ill or probably uninformed, most people think they are.

I did so out of respect for everyone here. As I am sure the many people who did the same, did as well.

I prefer to talk to people, argue with, debate, laugh, with people who at the end of the day, actually created something of value, and sometimes of beauty, something tangible.

I do that. Many of the other people on here do that too.

Stewart, you rightfully talked about how in tattooing it's different in degree from other things, because of the responsibility of putting something permanent on another person. It can be a very intimate experience, even without a 'story.'

But there is also the responsibility towards yourself, how you construct your life and time, in order to be good or even great. It's very deliberate. That's what I have an interest in, pretty much regardless of the actual work being done.

To me it's half the equation to what makes up a good life.

I approached it and related back into a thought experiment on what would someone do to be self taught, in a manner and tone I already apologized for.

Why? Because I thought it would be an interesting conversation in a forum about tattooing.

[Jaycel Adkins]

MENTAL HEALTH BREAK*

*stolen from the daily dish blog.

looks at the above.....honestly, the whole thread is boarding on the surreal, so I'm retiring from it, if someone bothers to do an interesting smash of the original post, I might make a comment, but yeah....

[dari]

Regarding apprenticeship, I think there is a common misconception that most tattooers have apprentices, but this is far from the truth. Maybe that's the case in some places, but I have no idea where those places might be. But I know quite a few people who've been tattooing 15-20 years who've never taken on an apprentice.

[ShawnPorter]

Sheee'it. I don't even tattoo and I have an apprentice.

[Stewart Robson]

Jaycel, you didn't set up your pitch saying you wanted to conduct a thought experiment/exercise about how an approach to craft can be applied to the way we approach our daily lives, in order to live a more wholesome or fulfilling life. That's a subject dear to my heart and it ties in to alchemy and the concept of the Great Work. But I'll be damned if I'll discuss it on the internet with strangers. That's something for people who come and get tattooed or hang out at the shop, once I know they have the capacity to understand and contribute in a positive way.

Although it wasn't you main intention, you set out rules to help assist ignorant and lazy people damage other human's bodies permanently.

You didn't attempt to engage in conversation or discussion, your responses were mostly "Oh, you think I'm wrong, well yeah but, CAKE!, 'um yeah here's some jpegs"

it's rare that a thought experiment will be encouraged by tattooers. that's for the theoretical world of academe. Tattooing is practical, it really happens, whatever the result of a discussion may be.

[Ursula]

Jaycel, we ARE discussing your first post. You posted something and here's all the reactions.. I don't see where this is getting into being surreal?

You say you sign your name beside your posts, guess what so do most of us. We're not hiding behind anything.

As far as going off on tangents, that's what happens in any normal conversation.

If you're bummed cause people didn't agree with you and ripped apart your post, well you shouldn't have posted it I guess. People DID address your original post before "droning on about how you have no right". Almost all of the first page of replies is directly in response to what you asked. People talking about how they started or their opinion on how someone should start.

[Bubbleberry]

Jaycel, take it on the chin and let it go. Speaking from experience, both on-line and more recently in the real world - tattooing is a serious business and the guys on here treat it as such. You will learn a lot hanging out here, but its probably best just not returning to this thread. Everything that need's to be said has been and a whole lot more.

I know, believe me, I know, that the quest to be right can be addictive, but I guarantee that letting it go will make you much happier.